"A Brief for Whitey"

[KzA]

Originally Posted by CUEBALL

The fact that it hasn't caused a bigger uproar is incredible. I think that is kind of what Pat's thought train was aiming at, even if that article's intent may have been different. I don't want to get in the whole deal here, since I don't type well, and would rather do it in person, but I understand well the crux of his story.

If John McCain went to the same church, with the same sermon, for the same time, but everyone was white, would the community at large be saying it is OK, you have to understand the pastors background, etc etc.

I think not.

If you want to be open about race in this country, you have to open minded on all sides. Its a multi lane road

Man come on...John McCain was born in 1936. Are you telling me hes never been associated with any whites that could be considered racist?

I dont really understand what Barack Obama really has to do with what his Reverend said. Do any of you honestly believe that Obama shares the opinions of his pastor? If you do, then you are obviously misinformed.

Don't you guys understand at all why Blacks have yet to just "get over it"? Black people weren't even allowed to go to good schools until 54. McCain didnt go to highschool with black people, to put it in context. This is not JUST slavery (although if black people enslaved my Dad's grandfather, my Dad would probably hate black people). Blacks were treated like **** in this country for well into our recent history, and if you can't at least admit that, then you are probably ignorant.

And just to touch on the "Hillary" comment, I can't understand how some people can justify weighing the importance of a handful of quotes from a reverend in a church that Obama attends much more heavily than Hillary Clintons bold faced Bosnia lie. Flat out lying to the faces of an entire audience to pick up a few votes?

[marlinspike]

I don't think Obama shares the view of the pastor, but I also think he shouldn't have attended service there regularly. My main issues with Obama are gun rights issues. Of course, make no mistake, when it comes to gun rights, W has stabbed us in the back and McCain has a mixed record (better than Obama and the Clintons though, but still mixed, which leads me to think he'd end up similar to W once in the WH).

[CUEBALL]

Oh, we get it. I know blacks were treated like crap until recently. I bet most in this thread understand that point, and agree. But now that a lot of that has been lessened, what do we do?
What I think is a point for me, is that I feel sometimes that the standards aren't the same both ways. The point I was trying to make, and should have used other names to make it just about the point, is that things that are ok if said/done by someone in the black community don't garner as much criticism/comment by the white community for fear of being called racist. But if that same type behavior happens in the white community, much comment is made in the black community, and the racist tag most may be given.... but the white's won't make too big a deal about it because we don't want to be called a racist. We all are somewhat afraid to talk about racism in a two way manner, since all races are guilty of it.

My point was trying to say, a black candidate who goes to a place where a black woman says hateful things gets less a racism tag than a white guy who goes to a place where the white woman says hateful things, even if the message, not the words, are the same. At least that is a perception in the white community.. a lot of us are a bit gun-shy and walk on un-necessary eggshells and it needs to be a group effort.

Originally Posted by KzA

Man come on...John McCain was born in 1936. Are you telling me hes never been associated with any whites that could be considered racist?

I dont really understand what Barack Obama really has to do with what his Reverend said. Do any of you honestly believe that Obama shares the opinions of his pastor? If you do, then you are obviously misinformed.

Don't you guys understand at all why Blacks have yet to just "get over it"? Black people weren't even allowed to go to good schools until 54. McCain didnt go to highschool with black people, to put it in context. This is not JUST slavery (although if black people enslaved my Dad's grandfather, my Dad would probably hate black people). Blacks were treated like **** in this country for well into our recent history, and if you can't at least admit that, then you are probably ignorant.

And just to touch on the "Hillary" comment, I can't understand how some people can justify weighing the importance of a handful of quotes from a reverend in a church that Obama attends much more heavily than Hillary Clintons bold faced Bosnia lie. Flat out lying to the faces of an entire audience to pick up a few votes?

[OoTLink]

Originally Posted by KzA

Blacks were treated like **** in this country for well into our recent history, and if you can't at least admit that, then you are probably ignorant.

Yeah, and in the past 20 years, black people have been sitting on a pedestal of equality and affirmative action.

Meanwhile, many other minority groups are still getting treated like ****, it's like Carlos Mencia says, everybody gets a hazing before they can join the club.

I especially get mad about all of the ignorant racism that goes on regarding spanish people in this country, and I've seen plenty of it on this forum - most people here have about as much of an understanding of Spanish-speaking countries, as a 12 year old does about all the rock genres out there. I'm sick of the general opinion that everything south of the border is mexico, and I'm sick of the stereotypes involved in it. Because of that behavior, it's not only completely obvious that many Americans have never been outside of the US, but also have earned this country a reputation for not knowing anything about anyone else.

Just do me a favor, go to Argentina or Spain and try to order some tacos or something. It's about as retarded as going to Japan, heading to a restaurant, and asking why they don't sell sweet and sour pork. (Not that you wouldn't get laughed at asking for the same thing in China)

What happened to black people here was nothing special or extraordinary, in the process of the US becoming a civilized country, all sorts of exploitation happened all over the places, we've literally enslaved kids, abused women, and enslaved other races (what about Chinese people working for the railroads?) - even when we paid them we were technically forcing them to work anyway.

And it's not that it was US, it was SOME ancestors, mine? Nope, I can safely say we weren't involved with any of it, I don't owe any apologies to African Americans, and I utterly refuse to apologize or pay anything to them regarding that issue.

Look, slavery was nothing new - it happened all over the place, and again, even when it wasn't paid for, racism still happens today in the US, and generally black people aren't the butt of the joke. Personally, I feel that associations primarily created by African Americans "to advance colored people" are hypocritical, in that they're generally only supportive of other... African Americans. Genius!

If we're done with racism, why are we still talking about affirmative action? Why do we still have "advancement programs", why do we have the united negro college fund?

Why isn't there a United caucasian college fund? I believe I'm what they'd consider caucasian, and they didn't roll out the red carpet for me, in fact I still have to work my ass off to get into a college, about as much as any other dude in this town would, black or white.

You're welcome to prove me wrong, but in the end I really believe money talks - color doesn't matter, nor does heritage, in getting education... WILLINGNESS DOES. People don't become wealthy sitting around feeling sorry for themselves, they have to look for that wealth - even if you buy a lottery ticket you're doing more than a lot of people who wish they had money.

Actually, I decided to add to this (and take a little that I think would distract from the effectiveness of my point out)...

If you look at a movie from at least 50 years ago, maybe 60 or 70 years ago, here's an example my mother brought up - Giants with Elizabeth Taylor and Rock Hudson, and white people were treating black people the same way as they were treating everyone else (pretty bad).

Public buildings had bathrooms for white people, and colored people; They didn't say black people specifically.

And what about this?


If I seem to not be making sense, let me sum this all up in a nice neat sentence: Reverand Wright's speech is frivolous, he wants a black president to give the black people justice, but they've already achieved better treatment in this country than every other minority race has.

In my opinion, these days the "race card" is something only used to buy things, just like a credit card.

Some people state that it's not fair Obama's being scrutinized for not saying the right things, personally I think his speech on racism in this country is a bunch of words with very little meaning, maybe even a bit of a cop out of the subject.

And why shouldn't he be scrutinized for how he handles things? Constantly over the past few months, he's been bragging about his 2002 speech made against starting the Iraq war, not unlike Giuliani and his constant bragging about how he handled 9/11. My point? Perhaps it's inhuman to be correct from day one.

I still prefer to keep it to what I think is responsible, and like most people here there's a lot I would agree with, and a lot I don't agree with. However in my case, I'm not dazzled by the 83% positive publicity Obama's getting in the news contrasted to the hardly positive publicity McCain and Clinton get in the news, and the word change doesn't turn me on.

[marlinspike]

First off, Hispanics, Native Americans, and Eskimos all get affirmative action as well. Secondly, you're only looking at one justification for affirmative action, and in my mind it's the worst one.

The other justification, and the one that I think is better, is that you need the leadership to look like the people for society to function well, even if you have to force it a bit to get it there. Read the military's amicus brief in Grutter v Bollinger for details on this argument.

[DaveW68]

Originally Posted by marlinspike

First off, Hispanics, Native Americans, and Eskimos all get affirmative action as well. Secondly, you're only looking at one justification for affirmative action, and in my mind it's the worst one.

The other justification, and the one that I think is better, is that you need the leadership to look like the people for society to function well, even if you have to force it a bit to get it there. Read the military's amicus brief in Grutter v Bollinger for details on this argument.

Your argument is the exact same argument made by the University of Michigan a few years ago. And this is precisely the reason why racism will never go away in this country. Until blacks as a whole can make their way in this country without feeling that they "deserve" or "need" an advantage because of their color, whether it be from our government, affirmative action, the NAACP, or some other association, "whitey" will always feel a grudge against them.

[marlinspike]

Originally Posted by DaveW68

Your argument is the exact same argument made by the University of Michigan a few years ago. And this is precisely the reason why racism will never go away in this country. Until blacks as a whole can make their way in this country without feeling that they "deserve" or "need" an advantage because of their color, whether it be from our government, affirmative action, the NAACP, or some other association, "whitey" will always feel a grudge against them.

Uh, I realize it's the argument Michigan made, that's why I referenced an amicus brief in Grutter v Bollinger.

It's not about "whitey" feeling a grudge though, it's more about making the historically outcast members of society feel less outcast, and then once that happens affirmative action and the like can be dropped.

Ask a black person how much racism there is and then ask a white person how much racims there is, and you'll get two very different answers. The goal isn't to make the white person necessarily say there is even less racism, but just to make the two observations match up, and then we can go to business as usual.

[DaveW68]

Originally Posted by marlinspike

Uh, I realize it's the argument Michigan made, that's why I referenced an amicus brief in Grutter v Bollinger.

It's not about "whitey" feeling a grudge though, it's more about making the historically outcast members of society feel less outcast, and then once that happens affirmative action and the like can be dropped.

I know that those groups don't want "whitey" to feel a grude, but he does anyway due to how unfair the system has become. I don't give a rats arse about "historically outcast members of society". I live in the 21st century and I don't see black people as being "outcast" any more, unless that's the way that they have chosen to feel. It's time for these black folks to just let their grudges against "whitey" go for things that happened several decades and centurys ago. Black people (and American society as a whole) have come a long long long way in the last 60 years, and I believe are treated very much as equals in our society today. But the stranglehold that they have established on the Democratic party over the last 40 years has given them more unfair advantages than any other race in this country. Affirmative action will never just "go away". As long as the government has their backs, they are going to try to take away as much as they can.

Ask a black person how much racism there is and then ask a white person how much racims there is, and you'll get two very different answers. The goal isn't to make the white person necessarily say there is even less racism, but just to make the two observations match up, and then we can go to business as usual.

Of course a black person is going to say that there is more racism against them. That is what is ingrained into their psychies. The above mentioned "Reverend's" and associations are the biggest problem (but not the only problem). They are the ones telling these folks that "whitey" is a racist and that he owes them for past injustices. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist against black folks in the US. But until somebody puts a muzzle on those outspoken loud mouths who spew their hatred, the feeling will run rampant in the black community (or until they choose not to listen and follow those people as the leaders of their race). We will never feel like equals until we start treating each other that way.

[BlkLikeMe]

Honestly I can't believe a moderator initiated this thread. I'm truly shocked at the responses by the moderator, some which can be taken as inflammatory. Considering you state without hesitation that you know what a black persons' response would be in regard to racism, I'm assuming that you're "black"?? I hate to think that you would be speaking of "my response to that question as a man of color".

Religion has been used throughout history to enslave, brainwash and take weak minds and mold them into racist tools.

Oppression against any person based on color is morally WRONG! I could jump from church to church and I'm sure I'd find a disagreement in their fundamental teaching or actions of the church. I've always been told: "Find a church where you can learn about the bible and grow. Don't get caught up in the short comings of the people in the pulpit or church board members. Remember you are in church to serve God and not man. Don't let man's shortcoming and thoughts take you to hell, be responsible for your own salvation." I prefer to attend a church that is active in the community in a positive role. I prefer attending a church that affords growth.

Don't get me wrong, I've heard ministers such as Wright and I'm in shock and I ask the other half "Did he/she just say that?" Sometimes it'll take away from all the good but I remember there's a man/woman in that pulpit and not God. I don't entertain racism/racist ideas, actions or behavior. I don't see color when I look at another individual. All I want to know is "are you a good person"? I could point out well known ministers of various races and bring up sermons where they have preached racism but it would only prove that these are men in these pulpits and not GOD.

No man owes me anything! I pay my way as I go. I serve this country in it's armed forces and I fought for all the core values we all want in a society.

If you're fed up with social programs, ask yourself why they were created and why do they still exist? NO, you may have not had any hand in the wrong doings but someone did. I received no AFFIRMATIVE ACTION favors from the private university I attended. I was blessed to get academic scholarships that outweighed the value of an athletic scholarship.

I'm still looking for that last 20years pedestal of equality that I've supposedly been sitting on.

Pat B. responses to this mess proves he's only a man and not the sharpest tool in the shed but I guess when you look at your ego it overshadows common sense. When you elevate man to a perceived position of power, he stops serving God and becomes self serving--history has proven this all too well.

Now as a man I must go finish my list--you know the one all men have regardless of color...the "honey-do list"...I guess that's one piece of unity for all races

[skeletonizer]

The two biggest facilitators of racism in this country are the Domocrat Party and the Republican Party.

Divide and conquer.

Neither party is doing anything to help us. It is all about getting elected/reelected. Race is just another tool to them, just like the engergy crisis, global warming, gun control, immigration, etc.

The majors will NEVER EVER fix these problems. It is their life blood. Just like disease is to the modern medical system. Why cure it when you can "treat it". Treating a problem forever makes you more money than curing it once.

Some say that voting third party is wasting a vote. I think otherwise. If you vote Democrat you are doing nothing for America. If you vote Republican you are doing nothing for America.

If you DON'T vote third party (any other party) you are wasting your vote.