DiabloSport Predator Programmer 5.7/6.1

[rtr0id]

Originally Posted by Chrispy

It is coming, I can guarantee it

Whether it is aug or not I am not sure but it is definitely coming...(Unless a meteor hits their building or something)

I don't know about a metor but its hurricane season down here now. I'm less then 10 miles from Diablo head quarters. I'll keep an eye on the building for ya

[stevesrt8]

Originally Posted by zmw

What is B&G using and why can no one else flash/modify the PCMs? With the subaru's it was just a matter of someone reverse engineering the PCM and then writing a programmer - do people just not do this for these cars? I'm not going to hold my breath for the diablo, but it sure would be nice... I am still half tempted to do the b&g with a spare PCM though...-Z

After waiting two years I am prepared to wait some more. I figure they'll just cater to the 5.7 crowd and leave us out in the cold!

BTW, this ain't no Subaru, this is Mercedes tech and there are multiple firewalls with no manufacturer support. Look at Superchips for the 5.7, it's a pure toy. Plus the SRT8 is tuned too close to the "edge" for much modifying without extreme risk of damage. There was once a big furor over underdrive pulleys only to eventually reveal we already have one!

Still waiting!

[zmw]

Not really sure what your comment about this is mercedes versus subaru is supposed to mean - Frankly, japanese electronics are probably superior and more difficult to crack - and believe me when i tell you it's no walk in the park - Subaru intentionally, every year revs the ECU's in an effort to prevent it's modification, and every year just a few months after the fact someone has cracked it and made it programmable..

I am also not convinced that the SRT is tuned with in an inch of it's life... as with all manufactured cars you ahve to build them to the lowest common denominator, which includes crappy gas, moron drivers, grandmas, teen agers, and insurance companies... - this often results in tunes that are VERY conservative from the factory.... - Again I point at the subaru, from first hand knowledge the STI is a low 13 second car, off the lot high high 12s if you are a king pin at launching an AWD and shifting... however, on a stock turbo the car has been retuned to be into the 11s.... which i would guess is approximately 150-180 wheel horsepower higher than stock...

I actually think this is a problem of market saturation.... the SRTs, although popular on this board - seem to be very low quantity products... and as we always say in business, there is an 80% rule. If you can reach 80% of your audience with a single product but only 20% with another product, do the 80%. Often times that extra 20% is more costly, with lower margins and less demand.

I mean there is what? 20k SRT8s in production? (guessing) of those 20k only a handful would even ever buy a tuning product, and even less would actually tune something with it. Let's just say that HYPOTHETICALLY 10% of owners would buy a diablo tuner... that's only 2k units, which is barely enough to justify the production costs and running a whole build of them. the gross gain would only be 780k$ versus a similar ratio on the 5.7 grossing 19.9 million...

so you have to look at it from a numbers perspective.. if i am diablo, and there are 500,000 DCX vehicles that use the 5.7 hemi and only 20k that use the 6.1 - you better believe i'm looking at hitting the crowd of folks who number 500k not the ones that number 20k.

Don't get me wrong, i want a tuning solution as much as the next guy because experience has shown that just good tuning can often net you solid, reliable performance with minimal if any down sides... I am just a realist in the fact that the SRT8 is not the run of the mill performance car, and there is not a million of them or some derivative out there... unlike your v8 mustangs and vettes, gtos, camaros, etc...

The other thing that seems to hurt the SRT8 cars is there is no (that i am aware of) factory sponsorship of racing... I know there is a D1 charger, but are there any other SRT8 race cars? - With subaru's there is an entire grass roots racing environment around those cars, from drag to rally and most of them have some type of subaru buy in and support... There are subaru only SCCA events and track days...

I'm not knockin the SRT8 at all - it's just not the everyday average tuner car - which means there is little if any reason to come up with good solutions for it.

-Z

[JoshD]

Originally Posted by zmw

if i am diablo, and there are 500,000 DCX vehicles that use the 5.7 hemi and only 20k that use the 6.1 - you better believe i'm looking at hitting the crowd of folks who number 500k not the ones that number 20k.

Not disagreeing with you, but keep in mind the percent of SRT8 owners willing to do such a mod is likely to be MUCH higher than the 5.7 crowd.

[zmw]

Originally Posted by JoshD

Not disagreeing with you, but keep in mind the percent of SRT8 owners willing to do such a mod is likely to be MUCH higher than the 5.7 crowd.

Even if you could get 100% saturation on the SRT8, it would still be less than the equivelent effort for the 5.7 - however I don't really agree with that mentality though...

while the SRT8 is almost always bought by enthusiasts I would say that 90% or more of them will never see anything more than a few quick romps to 80. As people that read this board, we have a contorted view of the SRT8 demography - we think that every SRT8 owner is on this forum and likes to mod their vehicles as much as we do - the fact of the matter is that probably MOST srt8 owners don't like to mod anything and have no clue how to use a forum ;P

-Z

[topfuel67]

Now that they're expanding the 6.1L into other models like the new Challenger and maybe a Cuda it could finally be time its worth it to get into the tuning. At least they can be the first programmer to get a jump on the market. Plus its not like they have to make a whole new line of programmers for the SRT8. I'm sure the basic design of the casing and circuit board configuration is the same. Its just a matter of the specific software that is in it.

[stevesrt8]

Originally Posted by zmw

Not really sure what your comment about this is mercedes versus subaru is supposed to mean - Frankly, japanese electronics are probably superior and more difficult to crack - and believe me when i tell you it's no walk in the park - Subaru intentionally, every year revs the ECU's in an effort to prevent it's modification, and every year just a few months after the fact someone has cracked it and made it programmable..

This is a fact. Many have given up. It's a very difficult process and the combination of CANBUS and tricky software has stymied everyone up to this point. It's the most complex code used in automobiles today, and the lack of a simple handheld tuner proves it.

I am also not convinced that the SRT is tuned with in an inch of it's life... as with all manufactured cars you ahve to build them to the lowest common denominator, which includes crappy gas, moron drivers, grandmas, teen agers, and insurance companies... - this often results in tunes that are VERY conservative from the factory.... - Again I point at the subaru, from first hand knowledge the STI is a low 13 second car, off the lot high high 12s if you are a king pin at launching an AWD and shifting... however, on a stock turbo the car has been retuned to be into the 11s.... which i would guess is approximately 150-180 wheel horsepower higher than stock...

I actually agree with most of this, as I am aware of the compromises made for production, and I had lunch with SRT boys at my first SRTTE. They spoke of their first few test mules having really big HP numbers and actually "outrunning" their own software! But you will find that within safe limits (EGT) this motor has little to offer. Maybe some driveability upgrades, but nothing like the other cars you mention.

I actually think this is a problem of market saturation.... the SRTs, although popular on this board - seem to be very low quantity products... and as we always say in business, there is an 80% rule. If you can reach 80% of your audience with a single product but only 20% with another product, do the 80%. Often times that extra 20% is more costly, with lower margins and less demand.

There's plenty of cars, and the whole SRT series clearly does not appeal to the masses, more so to enthusiasts. Once again, many have tried, all have failed. I am extremely skeptical of Diablo as well.

I mean there is what? 20k SRT8s in production? (guessing) of those 20k only a handful would even ever buy a tuning product, and even less would actually tune something with it. Let's just say that HYPOTHETICALLY 10% of owners would buy a diablo tuner... that's only 2k units, which is barely enough to justify the production costs and running a whole build of them. the gross gain would only be 780k$ versus a similar ratio on the 5.7 grossing 19.9 million...

Pure speculation, no argument possible.

so you have to look at it from a numbers perspective.. if i am diablo, and there are 500,000 DCX vehicles that use the 5.7 hemi and only 20k that use the 6.1 - you better believe i'm looking at hitting the crowd of folks who number 500k not the ones that number 20k.

They will hit them, and the others have already. Just look at what superchips really gives you for a 5.7. Nada (IMO).

Don't get me wrong, i want a tuning solution as much as the next guy because experience has shown that just good tuning can often net you solid, reliable performance with minimal if any down sides... I am just a realist in the fact that the SRT8 is not the run of the mill performance car, and there is not a million of them or some derivative out there... unlike your v8 mustangs and vettes, gtos, camaros, etc...

You nailed it here. We are not "run of the mill".

The other thing that seems to hurt the SRT8 cars is there is no (that i am aware of) factory sponsorship of racing... I know there is a D1 charger, but are there any other SRT8 race cars? - With subaru's there is an entire grass roots racing environment around those cars, from drag to rally and most of them have some type of subaru buy in and support... There are subaru only SCCA events and track days...

See above comment.
I'm not knockin the SRT8 at all - it's just not the everyday average tuner car - which means there is little if any reason to come up with good solutions for it.

-Z

While I can respect your wealth of opinions, I respectfully disagree. Many other companies have tried and failed with the SRT8 specifically. It is a unique car for DCX and basically boils down to a Mercedes hot rod with a Chrysler engine. It's this synthesis of Daimler with Chrysler which makes this car so hard to tune and results in difficulty with the simplest of mods.

I sincerely hope that someone will step up and give us a real tuning solution. I also do not hold my breath while waiting for nearly two years!

[Jected]

I have never owned a car that I have not been able to do what I want to it and DCX have stopped/hinded the plans I had of building an engine setup to run twin turbo's due to the inability to tune the PCM. It is a necessary thing which can be just as important as the engine build itself as it will help maximise what i have had built and ensure correct and safe running of the engine.

Will this Diabolo programmer allow me to edit/tune the PCM/CAN BUS to suit what I am wanting to do, similar to the owners of GM products can, or is this just another signal interpreter which are really only good for stock engines.

I know one thing for certain though. If tuning has not become available by the time either the new HSV GTS (due around 2008 with the LS3 6.2litre 321KW) or whether we get the concept Camaro landing here in Australia I will be getting rid of the SRT8 and purchasing either one of those, which will then be sent straight from the showroom to have the mods I was wanting added to the SRT8.

AND I will never again look at another Chrysler product. This was my first and could very well be my last. Yes it gets the looks when its driving down the street but so does a brand new performance car with a blower or turbo setup whinning off its head. Still I would love to set this car up the way I want and then have the best of oth worlds...

[zmw]

That's the beauty of this board is the ability to agree to disagree - I will be the first to say that I am not speaking from any position of authority or knowledge when it comes to DCX, just expressing what has been my experience with other manufacturers and the car industry as a whole.

I think it will help immensley when (if?) the 6.1L actually starts making it into NON srt vehicles...

If dodge did a 6.1L option in the RAM that was not SRT, allowing customers the option of a higher HP/TQ option for their regular duty trucks for example it would pay dividends for us. I for one would probably buy a ram 1500 4x4 if the 6.1L were an option... as it stands there is just not enough HP/TQ to satisfy the towing needs... but i don't really need a 2500 and diesel either, so somewhere in between....

I am not sure I agree with canbus being the problem - Everyone 06 and newer car I know of has moved to a canbus system (odbII is supposed to be phased by late 07 I think) - the one thing that I think is making this more complex is that the chrysler/merc PCMs have an aweful lot of nanny action going oin, everything seems to be tied into the PCM, which provides for an excellent user experience in terms of integration - but does make it hell when considering upgrades....

I do wonder why DCX is so tight lipped with it though - if they simply had a factory tuning option they could keep track of WHO had one, but still allow tuning of some of their most popular cars....

hmmmm - buying a supra for a track car is looking better and better ;P

-Z

[Northern Rider]

Maybe the change in ownership of Chrysler will be the best thing that's ever happened for us MOPAR enthusiasts.

Here's my take. The SRT-8 powertrain design can be tweaked to render much more usable power for the road and track. DCX did not let the SRT guys share the ECM tuning changes necessary with MOPAR or the aftermarket.

Why? Simple. They did not want to see these $40K vehicles dusting off their high end Mercs and AMG's.

Let's hope my speculation is correct and the new Chrysler Group unleases the Hounds of Hell to us gearheads . . .