Skidpad numbers

[brandon6976]

I was just curious. The stock 300c skidpad rating is like 0.77 or 0.78 if I remember which in terms of handling is probably outhandled by a 30's car.

Just curious if there has been any testing post suspension/roll bar or even performance tires.

I like the 300c I just can't stand the fact the car can't seem to turn around a corner.

[Northern Rider]

In this world of FWD, you have to keep in mind that the 300C is a RWD with a 120" wheelbase. On a tight radius turn, the car's suspension is tuned to understeer (push towards the outside of the turn).

However, as you apply more power to the rear wheels, the steering goes to neutral, then to slight oversteer before losing traction. The ideal fast tight turn is accomplished with the rear wheels set out in a 15 degree drift.

Cornering improves significantly if you replace the OEM tires with a summer max performance tire such as a BFG KDW or a Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3. Initial understeer all but disappears and turn-in's are crisp. The addition of larger sway bars also reduces body roll.

On the race track, my 300C with Conti OEM tires and no other suspension mods still managed to outhandle a MazdaSpeed MX5; a Boxster and a Honda S2000 through the twisties - providing you kept your foot in it all the way through.

[brandon6976]

thats a drivers game. Its easy to go to the track and beat people who don't know how to drive their car. I run the canadian celica site and one of our montreal guys goes to the track and out runs the porsche 911's and corvettes. The truth is those cars are better. Its the person at the wheel not willing to take the car to its limit.

No offense but I think a boxster or S2000 could eat the 300c alive on a track. The S2000 stock vs stock has the same 1/4mile time as the 300c and its skidpad rating is around .91, this is also a front engine RWD car.

The vette does over .95 with the new Z51 and thats the base not even the Z06. The turning Circle on the 300c is 38.9 feet and the turning circle on the vette is 39.0. The vette has a 105" wheelbase so it is a smaller wheelbase.

I love the 300 (hell i own it so i'm not trying to bad mouth it) however facts are facts. I wouldn't turn a blind eye to hard data just cause I like the car. The truth as it appears is that the handling on this car just plain sucks.

I know a lot of people low it and add sway's etc etc. Just curious if there is any data that shows the impact of these modifcations.

[Northern Rider]

I agree with most of what you say. The secret weapon that the 300C has on a road course is the very rigid chassis that makes for smooth transitions and total predictablity. A small amount of ESP helps, as well, especially on high speed chicanes.

The Boxster driver just didn't know how to drive (it wasn't a Boxster S). The MX5 driver was in full race trim and was a good driver - just didn't have the torque on the fast Tremblant course. The S2000 driver was competent, but I was able to stay on his tail for 3 laps and he cooked his brakes.

The car I have now is an SRT8 with KW2 coilovers, lowered, Hotchkiss sways, the stock Brembos, 18" Borbet light wheels and F1-D3 tires. I have a Quaife differential and can run without any ESP intervedntion. It boogies!

Lowering, stiffening and better rubber works wonders on what is already a very stiff chassis. Well worth spending the money, imo.

[brandon6976]

I dunno something bothers me about that. I am no suspension expert. but your power to weight ratio is 9.78 and the S2000 is 11.7. So you're is technically better.

It sounds like what you're saying is you were chasing the S2000 and was able to keep up until his brakes let him down. My guess is that the S2000 was probably keeping more speed in the turn and you were gaining and closing gaps while not turning as I"m sure your straight line just dominated his in a SRT-8.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what the suspension mods do and if its really in vain on the chassis of the 300c.

[robaustin]

[quote=brandon6976;548536]

I love the 300 (hell i own it so i'm not trying to bad mouth it) however facts are facts. I wouldn't turn a blind eye to hard data just cause I like the car. The truth as it appears is that the handling on this car just plain sucks.

Sounds like we're talking about 2 different cars here. One stock 300C on Conti's is able to mix it up with some fairly competent sports cars on a road circuit and the other one will not even go around a corner!

There is also a video floating around this forum of Magnum performing fairly competently on a race course (Riverside?).

There does not appear to be a major consensus on this forum that the handling of our cars "sucks". I have not read any road tests that described the cornering ability of the LX's in such terms. 0.78G on the skid pad for stock tires on a 2 ton sedan is not unusually low. Perhaps brandon6976 is being a little dramatic.

[brandon6976]

well the E55 amg does .83
the Acura TL does .91 ( though about 500lbs lighter).
AUdi A8 does a .90 at 4399lbs (so nearly 400lbs heavier).
BMW 750i does .87 at 5434 lbs (thats 1400lbs heavier).
BMW 545i does .87 at 3814 lbs
the Cadillac STS does .82 at 4295 lbs
Even the out dated Ford Crown Vic runs a .79 at 4057 lbs
Jag Xjr at 3947 lbs does 0.81


Still think I'm being dramatic ?? Or should I go on with a longer list of cars that are in the same weight class/size and get their stats.

[Northern Rider]

Here's the video of my buddy, Matt robertson with his Maggie on the famous Laguna Seca track in NorCal:

LX's Unleashed at Laguna Seca Raceway!

Brandon, be very careful about quoting magazine test stats and doing armchair racing. The only thing that counts is what happens on the track. The 300C feels awkward in turns at low street speeds, simply because of its wheelbase.

The faster this car goes, the smaller it becomes. Fast race cars transition well - this means that the weight transfer upon acceleration, cornering and braking is smooth, all 4 wheels stay planted and hold their grip. The 300C chassis with its rigidity; the wonderful suspension geometry and the big brakes - just does not get upset in the twisties. Huge amounts of torque can be utilized just past the apex for great exit speed.

The S2000 never pulled away in the twisties - I sat about 1 foot from his bumper the entire time. On the long uphill straight I outpulled him coming out of the corner and simply outbraked him from the inside going into the 90 degree right hander at the end of the downhill - all 4200 lbs of my car.

The S2000 was lifting an inside rear wheel coming out of the corners. The 300C kept all wheels planted and gripping. The chassis is so rigid that the harmonics are in the same range as the 911 chassis. That is saying something about the engineering in this big Chrysler 4 door sedan.

Now the Vette C6 that was there that day - well, he dusted me big time!

[robaustin]

Originally Posted by brandon6976

well the E55 amg does .83
the Acura TL does .91 ( though about 500lbs lighter).
AUdi A8 does a .90 at 4399lbs (so nearly 400lbs heavier).
BMW 750i does .87 at 5434 lbs (thats 1400lbs heavier).
BMW 545i does .87 at 3814 lbs
the Cadillac STS does .82 at 4295 lbs
Even the out dated Ford Crown Vic runs a .79 at 4057 lbs
Jag Xjr at 3947 lbs does 0.81


Still think I'm being dramatic ?? Or should I go on with a longer list of cars that are in the same weight class/size and get their stats.

Yes I do. Skid pad figures are a not a particularly good indicator of performance on a race track. On the track you have the transitions, bumps, camber changes, cornering while braking etc. These factors do not show up in your steady state cornering on a smooth surfaced skid pad. Do you really think a Crown Vic could corner with a 300C on the track simply because it has the same skid pad figure? Also, if the 300 was had the stability control on when driven on the skid pad, it wouldn't develop the slip angles required to develop maximum G's. NR emphasized this in saying that he had to hang the rear end out about 15 degrees to develop maximum cornering. The road tests for the SRT's, with their more performance oriented tires, report about 0.88G on the skid pad. A regular 300C with equivalent rubber would probably do about the same. It sounds like you a condemning the whole car just for wearing Conti's. The Conti's have been slagged repeatedly in the forums, but for most members, changing their tires/wheels is not a big deal.

[brandon6976]

very cool. Thats the sorta info I was looking for. So as my original post asked

"Just curious if there has been any testing post suspension/roll bar or even performance tires"

So it sounds like the SRT8 though a slightly different suspension if I change the tires and maybe add a nice stiff sway I should be able to turn a corner while doing city driving. I'm being honest when I say I don't track much however this stock setup is terrible.

Skidpad obviously isn't going to be a direct translation into track times. However its designed to be a test of road holding ability, so obviously things like tires, suspension, chassis, roll bars all come into play