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:cool: HI guys...I have installed a 180 degrees 63mm thermostat and the engine is very happy on the highways-reading 185 to 195 degrees- on the EVIC but it goes back to regular temp. in city driving which is 214-217
I will try the 160 stat i am trying to locate and order .
I had 4 stats to play with by making extra holes but with the same results.
installation is very easy...removing two screws from the housing in front of engine and using same gasket....BTW it is the same thermostat of hemi RAMS and DURANGOS big 63mm,,,really big.
Thermostat: SUMMITRACING SUM-360181 $8.95
BE COOL BCI-78008 $19.69
Just wanted to share my experience. :)
maherm
 

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The reason the temp eventually goes back up it the computer must be reprogrammed to turn the fans on at a lower temperature to match the reduction in the thermostat. At highway speeds, the need for the fan is a lot less so it's still benficial there. Also, the lower t-stat is still good for drag racing when you cool down your car between runs.

Thanks for sharing the info. With it on the front right in your face, I guess it's one of the easier installations. Is this correct?
 

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maherm said:
:cool: HI guys...I have installed a 180 degrees 63mm thermostat and the engine is very happy on the highways-reading 185 to 195 degrees- on the EVIC but it goes back to regular temp. in city driving which is 214-217
I will try the 160 stat i am trying to locate and order .
I had 4 stats to play with by making extra holes but with the same results.
installation is very easy...removing two screws from the housing in front of engine and using same gasket....BTW it is the same thermostat of hemi RAMS and DURANGOS big 63mm,,,really big.
Thermostat: SUMMITRACING SUM-360181 $8.95
BE COOL BCI-78008 $19.69
Just wanted to share my experience. :)
maherm
You may want to put the stock thermostat back in. The new engines today are engineered to run at a hotter temp. Your probably thinking precomputer engines. IMO those days don't hold water on modern day engines unless your running a supercharger. You will find that on warm days, especially in stop and go your engine will acually run hotter than stock and may acually overheat easier. It would take a large thread to explain why your engine will run hotter with a 180 and even hotter with a 160 thermostat. In cool weather you'll be ok. In a few words it's because with a cooler thermostat, the water will be continually circulating at a much higher flow. You will not have a reserve of cool water to be released like the stock one is set up to do. I've had many new, old, and supercharged engines. Been there, done that. Well, I've put out my 2 cents worth. Cecil...........
 

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Do not use a 160 degree thermostat. Your computer will think the engine is never warming up and will eventually trigger a CE light. Also, 160 degrees isn't hot enough, and the engine will wear much faster at that temp. I would use nothing lower than stock, but 180 at least won't hurt anything. As was said before, you need to have your fan come on sooner.
 

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Aluminun heads and cold thermostat=less power. Cold engine means it takes longer time to get the condensation out of the oil. More engine wear. Plus, plus and plus.
 

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You may want to put the stock thermostat back in. The new engines today are engineered to run at a hotter temp. Your probably thinking precomputer engines. IMO those days don't hold water on modern day engines unless your running a supercharger. You will find that on warm days, especially in stop and go your engine will acually run hotter than stock and may acually overheat easier. It would take a large thread to explain why your engine will run hotter with a 180 and even hotter with a 160 thermostat. In cool weather you'll be ok. In a few words it's because with a cooler thermostat, the water will be continually circulating at a much higher flow. You will not have a reserve of cool water to be released like the stock one is set up to do. I've had many new, old, and supercharged engines. Been there, done that. Well, I've put out my 2 cents worth. Cecil...........
qictrk,
I must respectfully disagree.
Today’s engines are engineered to produce lower emissions. That’s way they run a little hotter. My 1972 cutlass came with a 195 degree thermostat.
The "old" rules are physics and no computer can change that. Computers do allow the engines to operate at higher temps because that can compensate for pre-ignition (spark knock). AND THIS IS WHY COOLER TEMPS= POTENTIAL POWER. Just changing the stat probably will not show any gains but if we could change the fuel maps, the cars could run leaner with out the computer taking timing advance out. More timing advance=more power, leaner mix (to a point) = more power
As far as the engine running hotter, the 180* stat allows the same amount of flow as the 195* stat. It only opens sooner. Even if it did allow more flow that would not equal less cooling. Now with out air being forced through the radiator the engine will run at the same temp no mater what stat you have. This temp is determined by the fan "on" temperature setting.

Dutch is right. You can go too cool. The computer runs a different program untill it reaches a set temp.

Dixietwister
Aluminun heads and cold thermostat=less power. Cold engine means it takes longer time to get the condensation out of the oil. More engine wear. Plus, plus and plus
.

I'm not sure why you think Aluminum heads and cold thermostat =less power.
The whole point of an aluminum head is it dissipates heat better than iron. This helps eliminate hot spots in the combustion chamber which can cause pre-ignition. (Which the knock sensor will see and the computer will take timing out)
As far as the oil, cooler oil is better for engine life. There is something to the condensation but 180* is plenty of heat to evaporate water.

just my 2 cents
 

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maneval69 said:
qictrk,
I must respectfully disagree.
Today’s engines are engineered to produce lower emissions. That’s way they run a little hotter. My 1972 cutlass came with a 195 degree thermostat.
The "old" rules are physics and no computer can change that. Computers do allow the engines to operate at higher temps because that can compensate for pre-ignition (spark knock). AND THIS IS WHY COOLER TEMPS= POTENTIAL POWER. Just changing the stat probably will not show any gains but if we could change the fuel maps, the cars could run leaner with out the computer taking timing advance out. More timing advance=more power, leaner mix (to a point) = more power
As far as the engine running hotter, the 180* stat allows the same amount of flow as the 195* stat. It only opens sooner. Even if it did allow more flow that would not equal less cooling. Now with out air being forced through the radiator the engine will run at the same temp no mater what stat you have. This temp is determined by the fan "on" temperature setting.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your probably going to be ok with the 180. But on a hot day, if your stuck in stop and go, you will over heat faster with a 180 than a 195. Like you say, it opens sooner. But because of this your water will continually circulate at a higher flow and will not allow the ambien air to have a chance to cool the water in your radiator. With a 195 you will start with a higher temp but the flow will be slower allowing more time for the air to cool the radiator down. I have a hard time putting my thoughts into writeing so if your not sure of what I'm trying to say, thats ok. Maybe one the engineers can better articulate what I'm trying to get across. It's not big deal and I don't want to make it anymore than it is. Like I said, you probably can get away with a 180. I've used them in the past too. Cecil..........
 

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Clear and simple

Most engines today are designed to operate within a "normal" temperature range of about 195 to 220 degrees F. A relatively constant operating temperature is essential for proper emissions control, good fuel economy and overall performance.

The aluminium pistons and the cast iron block have different expansion rates, they achieve their factory engineered clearance within the temperature ranges provided by the factory t’stat.

For street, non-forced induction engines there is little benefit to a lower temp t’stat. Due to differential expansion rates; lower temp gives a piston/bore clearance is too large, resulting in more oil blowby into the combustion chamber.

Lower temp. Also gives a lower combustion temp. which results in less-complete combustion and higher emissions, and an early build up of carbon, and lowered fuel mileage.

Overall the lower engine temp may result in a slightly denser/richer air/fuel mixture producing a little more power, and possibly a perceived improvement in throttle response, but it also exacerbates ring wear due to the oil washdown effect of unburned fuel.

A set of different heat-ranged spark plug may be needed to try to offset the incomplete combustion.

Small potential positive, definite potential negatives

Zilla
 

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Zilla
Most engines today are designed to operate within a "normal" temperature range of about 195 to 220 degrees F. A relatively constant operating temperature is essential for proper emissions control, good fuel economy and overall performance.
True – but if you tune an engine for 180 it will produce more power than the same engine tuned to 195 degrees.

The aluminium pistons and the cast iron block have different expansion rates, they achieve their factory engineered clearance within the temperature ranges provided by the factory t’stat.
Pistons have all been aluminum since the 60's and 15 degrees will make an insignificant change in the size of the bore or the piston. (If it’s even measurable) Keep in mind these things work from -32 to 210 with no problem.

For street, non-forced induction engines there is little benefit to a lower temp t’stat. Due to differential expansion rates; lower temp gives a piston/bore clearance is too large, resulting in more oil blowby into the combustion chamber.
See above

Lower temp. Also gives a lower combustion temp. which results in less-complete combustion and higher emissions, and an early build up of carbon, and lowered fuel mileage.
There will be higher emissions but if you have carbon build up you are running to rich.

Overall the lower engine temp may result in a slightly denser/richer air/fuel mixture producing a little more power, and possibly a perceived improvement in throttle response, but it also exacerbates ring wear due to the oil washdown effect of unburned fuel.
Cooler temps should not change the air/fuel ratio. (unless you cool the engine to much like say 160 stat) Anyway a richer mixture would reduce power not increase it. As far as washdown, you would have to be running way too rich (by today’s standards) for that to happen.

A set of different heat-ranged spark plug may be needed to try to offset the incomplete combustion
. This may be necessary but easily checked. Run for a while and pull a plug.

qictrk,
Both a 180 and 195 stat flow the same at 210 degrees. How is one going to make any difference over the other? Opening sooner only make the engine heat up slower from 180 to 210 or whenever the fan cuts on. The thermostats job is to heat the engine up not to cool it off. That’s what the fans are for.
I have had the experience (on the old motors) of removing the thermostat completely and having over heating problems. That local mechanics told me it was because the water moved through the radiator to fast to dissipate enough heat. This sounds like it could happen but the real problem was the fan clutch was weak. After fixing that, the engine ran too cool and took forever to produce heat. So, I put the thermostat back in and everything was fine.

Bottom line - a cooler T'stat will probable make no difference in performance unless you wire one of the fans to run all the time and/or re-program the computer to lean the mixture and add more spark advance.
 

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Back to school

maneval69 said:
Zilla
True – but if you tune an engine for 180 it will produce more power than the same engine tuned to 195 degrees
How you going to retune it if you don't have access to the computer because DCX are not releasing the way to access it?


Pistons have all been aluminum since the 60's and 15 degrees will make an insignificant change in the size of the bore or the piston. (If it’s even measurable) Keep in mind these things work from -32 to 210 with no problem.
These problems particular to: too cold a thermostat have been around since the inception of t'stat-controlled water cooling - you probably just aren't aware of them. We are not talking about a single trip, or even a thousand miles here, over the engine's lifetime running with a larger piston bore clearance and richness will cause the wear problems I detail in my original post - shortening it's life

There will be higher emissions but if you have carbon build up you are running to rich.
Running cooler can fool the computer into thinking the engine has not warmed up, and cause it to run rich ----- also
oil blowby due long term to larger piston bore clearance, combined with premature ring wear caused by oil washdown due to richness will also cause premature wear and carbon build up.

Cooler temps should not change the air/fuel ratio. (unless you cool the engine to much like say 160 stat) Anyway a richer mixture would reduce power not increase it. As far as washdown, you would have to be running way too rich (by today’s standards) for that to happen.
See above answer re air/fuel ratio

You've got it bass-ackwards: running with a slightly richer mixture than stock 300c emmission tune will slightly increase engine power.

see: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h55.pdf
scroll down to page 6 and read: till you fully understand that the ideal power mixture 14.7:1 (Stoichiometric) is richer than the ideal emissions - 300c standard mixture.

In fact you'd be better of reading and understanding the whole article.

Washdown/richness answer: maneval69 here's some schooling for you:

tp://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?id=8301 (read and understand the last paragraph)

I have had the experience (on the old motors) of removing the thermostat completely and having over heating problems. That local mechanics told me it was because the water moved through the radiator to fast to dissipate enough heat. This sounds like it could happen but the real problem was the fan clutch was weak.
Your mechanics were right -- trust them


Bottom line - a cooler T'stat will probable make no difference in performance unless you wire one of the fans to run all the time and/or re-program the computer to lean the mixture and add more spark advance.
What a load of crap. Don't you read previous forum posts? -- you cant do this leaning and advancing for the reasons of no access to the computer for mixture and advance. Having a fan running all the time will make the long-term problems created by a lower temp t'stat worse

Post again but be sure you are on absolutely solid ground --- or you'll get some more schooling.

Zilla (just call me the teacher)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I love this...
the temp degree written on 300C thermostat is 203F.......too hot for my 300C since I live in a non emission controlled and very very hot country in the Persian Gulf.
thnx guys
 

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So you changed from 203 to a 180.
You should have know problem with spark knock.

maherm,
Does your car have catalytic converters or any emissions equipement?
What kind of fuel are you running (leaded unleaded)?
 

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Zilla,
You don’t have all the information.
The article you reference has noting to do with making power. It’s all about efficient combustion for emissions.
Optimum for efficiency and emissions is 14.7:1. This is the target when cruising at a steady speed. (At a steady speed you don’t need the best power you need the best economy)
12.5-13:1 is best for power.
Where your confused is when you stand on the gas the air/fuel gets richer, on all cars old and new. At Wide Open Throttle our cars go as much as 11.7:1 which is too rich for optimum power. The 11.7:1 is the mixture I’m talking about leaning out for more power.

Q: Why would the engineers allow our cars to run this rich if it reduces power?
A: A richer mixture does not burn as well and therefore does not ignite as easily. Basically this has the same effect as running higher octane fuels. The higher the operating temperature of the engine the more likely you are to have pre-ignition (spark knock). Pre-ignition causes more power loss than running the richer mixture and can cause damage to the engine.

And that is the reason that lower engine temps make an engine capable of producing more power, if you can alter the air/fuel ratio to take advantage.
Search this site for the header dyno results. You will notice that the air fuel is leaner after the header install.

Anyway read this article – this was just the first article that popped up on a Google search

http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_tune/

How is that Mr. Garrison!

This is pretty basic engine stuff .
 

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Oh
I missed your the load of crap statement.
You apparently need to work on your reading comprehension. I have said from the beginning that a cooler thermostat would probable not produce any gains. It only creates the potential for the gains. We have to find ways to take advantage. Headers seem to work, free flowing intakes should help. The computer already adjusts timing for the highest amount of advance that doesn't cause problems. If there is a gain from changing T'stats it would be from timing advance.
The computer will be cracked eventually.
The issue I want you to understand is how the engine works so you understand the goal of a modification and that a 180 degree T’stat will not harm the engine.

Sence you what facts- the linear expansion rate of aluminum is .00001244/unit of measure/deg.F (Machinery's hand book edition 23)
Cast Iron is .00000655/unit of measure/deg.F
So at a 3.8 inch bore and a 20degree difference in temp gives us:
The aluminum decreases diameter by .00094544 inches.
The Iron cylinder decreases diameter by .0004978 inches
We get an actual increase of .00044764 inches in the piston to cylinder clearance if we reduced the material temper by 20 deg. From what I found in a rebuild book the clearance required for a piston to bore is .001 per inch of piston diameter.
Since there is no water cooling the piston, a cooler T'stat might make no diference at all in the piston temp or dia. If that's true then the clearence would actually be reduced
I don’t know if that is the correct bore but it should be close.
 

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maneval69 said:
Zilla,
You don’t have all the information.
The article you reference has noting to do with making power. It’s all about efficient combustion for emissions.
Optimum for efficiency and emissions is 14.7:1. This is the target when cruising at a steady speed. (At a steady speed you don’t need the best power you need the best economy)
12.5-13:1 is best for power.
Where your confused is when you stand on the gas the air/fuel gets richer, on all cars old and new. At Wide Open Throttle our cars go as much as 11.7:1 which is too rich for optimum power. The 11.7:1 is the mixture I’m talking about leaning out for more power.

Q: Why would the engineers allow our cars to run this rich if it reduces power?
A: A richer mixture does not burn as well and therefore does not ignite as easily. Basically this has the same effect as running higher octane fuels. The higher the operating temperature of the engine the more likely you are to have pre-ignition (spark knock). Pre-ignition causes more power loss than running the richer mixture and can cause damage to the engine.

And that is the reason that lower engine temps make an engine capable of producing more power, if you can alter the air/fuel ratio to take advantage.
Search this site for the header dyno results. You will notice that the air fuel is leaner after the header install.

Anyway read this article – this was just the first article that popped up on a Google search

http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_tune/

.
It appears you are trying to lecture me with the point I am trying to make to you. At least I see you have an understanting of mixture ratio and power.

The reason DCX have the FI very rich at WOT is that it not only produces more power, but also at maximum stress conditions of WOT the extra richness keeps the engine from damaging itself due to getting too hot. This due to the cooler temperature at which a richer mixture burns. Also government emmission tests are not conducted at WOT condition, so it won't fail the tests. This WOT rich condition will not damage the engine because of it's brevity. If you fool the engine computer into running rich all the time by installing a 180 deg you will damage the engine in the long term

It has always been my position that a header will lean out the mixture, why introduce that?

Zilla
 

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More schooling

maneval69 said:
Oh
I missed your the load of crap statement.
You apparently need to work on your reading comprehension. I have said from the beginning that a cooler thermostat would probable not produce any gains. It only creates the potential for the gains. We have to find ways to take advantage. Headers seem to work, free flowing intakes should help. The computer already adjusts timing for the highest amount of advance that doesn't cause problems. If there is a gain from changing T'stats it would be from timing advance.
The computer will be cracked eventually.
The issue I want you to understand is how the engine works so you understand the goal of a modification and that a 180 degree T’stat will not harm the engine.

Sence you what facts- the linear expansion rate of aluminum is .00001244/unit of measure/deg.F (Machinery's hand book edition 23)
Cast Iron is .00000655/unit of measure/deg.F
So at a 3.8 inch bore and a 20degree difference in temp gives us:
The aluminum decreases diameter by .00094544 inches.
The Iron cylinder decreases diameter by .0004978 inches
We get an actual increase of .00044764 inches in the piston to cylinder clearance if we reduced the material temper by 20 deg. From what I found in a rebuild book the clearance required for a piston to bore is .001 per inch of piston diameter.
Since there is no water cooling the piston, a cooler T'stat might make no diference at all in the piston temp or dia. If that's true then the clearence would actually be reduced
I don’t know if that is the correct bore but it should be close.
The above is the load of crap I am talking about. A cooler thermostat will fool the engine FI computer into running richer. Downside is that continually running rich, not just at WOT, can damage your engine.

The richness caused by installing a 180 deg 'stat can produce gains. See downside statement.

Effectively the water does indirectly cool the piston.The rich condition causes the engine to run cooler overall. Also richness will cause the piston to shink more relative to the bore due to it's differential expansion rate. The richer mixture specifically cools the piston as it is the hot piston that it cools when the extra fuel (richer): read extra cooling for the piston - enters the combustion chamber.

A 180 deg T'stat can damage your engine

http://members.shaw.ca/pferlow/cooling_system.htm

last paragaraph, no I'll do it for you:

"An old adage was to put a lower temperature thermostat in vehicles to increase performance. This was true 10 years ago but not with the modern computer controlled vehicles. The newer vehicles will try to adjust the fuel injection timing and duration and/or ignition timing to counteract the lower temperature thus resulting in worse performance and bad gas mileage plus evil tail-pipe emissions because the fuel injection is dumping too much gasoline into the motor."

and from
http://www.usautoteile.com/reparatur_tips.htm

"if the thermostat needs to be replaced, install one with the same temperature rating as the original. Most cars and light trucks since 1971 require thermostats with 192 or 195 degree ratings. Using a cooler thermostat (160 or 180 degree) can increase fuel and oil consumption, ring wear and emissions. On newer vehicles with computerized engine controls, the wrong thermostat can cause major performance and emission problems if the engine fails to reach the proper operating temperature."

and from
http://www.2carpros.com/topics/thermo.htm

Question: 2001 Chevy/Corvette LS1 mileage: 6000. I'm thinking of replacing my vehicle's thermostat from stock 192 degrees to a 160 or a 178 low temp thermostat. I live in Florida and during summer, the vehicle runs hot, doesn't overheat, just runs hot. I know some of the benefits of a low temp thermostat, but what are some of the problems that this change may cause?

Answer: Your engine computer management system is designed to work with the engine at 192 degrees. A lower temperature thermostat may keep the engine in open loop not allowing the computer to control the engine. This creates drivability problems.

Zilla
 

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Am I missing something here?

Since when is a thermostat used to cool a car??? It's job is to let the car heat up faster. Once the engine has reached operating temperature (well above that of when either a 160 or 180 t-stat opens) it's the job of the fans to control the temperature of the coolant (at least a stop or low speeds)

Installing a lower t-stat will do nothing for performance without modifying the fan trip temp. But if you're seeing 185-200 degree temps you'll get great performance anyway. I don't see a reason to run the engine any cooler.

:confused:
 

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Good post VVV90

vvv90 said:
Am I missing something here?

Since when is a thermostat used to cool a car??? It's job is to let the car heat up faster. Once the engine has reached operating temperature (well above that of when either a 160 or 180 t-stat opens) it's the job of the fans to control the temperature of the coolant (at least a stop or low speeds)

Installing a lower t-stat will do nothing for performance without modifying the fan trip temp. But if you're seeing 185-200 degree temps you'll get great performance anyway. I don't see a reason to run the engine any cooler.

:confused:
That's a good question VVV90

It's a situation that the engine needs a 195 deg thermostat to run at 195 deg or above after it has warmed up, for all to be well with computer control of the fuel injection.

A lower thermostat may be an attempt to fool the computer into a rich condition to produce more power.

You're right with all the long term problems that can bring on who needs it.

Zilla
 

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Ok, Zilla one more time and I’m not trying to beat the dead horse but these are fundamental issues we are arguing about and the basis for almost all the power modes everyone wants to do.


Let try to settle some points.
-You keep saying that the computer will make the mixture richer if the engine is running at 180 deg. I think your wrong, why would the computer do this?
If anything it would lean the mixture because the 02 sensor would see increased emissions.

In this Speed Density system there are three operating conditions. The names are not industry standards I am just describing the conditions.
1-Warm- up – this condition runs an open loop or pre-determined program that doesn’t use any sensory inputs to adjust the A/F mix. It runs richer for the same reason you have a choke on a carb. Cold engines need a richer mix to keep running because the temperature inhibits the combustion.
2- Normal operating conditions. This is a closed loop (or feed back) program. It uses the density of the air, throttle position, and engine speed to determine how much fuel to add. The amount of fuel added is pre-determined by the fuel map. The 02 has some impact but it is limited to the maps parameters.
3- Wide Open Throttle. This is an opened loop program much like the warm up mode but the fuel requirements are different because of temperature and desired result.

Maybe you believe that at 180 degrees the computer switchs to warm up mode (open loop like the camaro Q/A). This would explain your theory of 180 deg T’stat making the mixture richer. Which your entire conclusion seems to be based on and the thing I don’t believe to be true.
I believe it is more like 150-160 when the program would change from warm up to normal. I don’t know for sure. If anyone can find out it would solve a lot of problems.
Now if the computer does switch to the warm up program at anything under 180 then a 180 degree T’stat could be bad. (THE ONLY WAY)

The reason DCX have the FI very rich at WOT is that it not only produces more power, but also at maximum stress conditions of WOT the extra richness keeps the engine from damaging itself due to getting too hot. This due to the cooler temperature at which a richer mixture burns. Also government emmission tests are not conducted at WOT condition, so it won't fail the tests. This WOT rich condition will not damage the engine because of it's brevity. If you fool the engine computer into running rich all the time by installing a 180 deg you will damage the engine in the long term
You still don’t seem to understand that at WOT 12:1 will make less power than 12.5:1. Every dyno result I’ve seen that had A/F readings shows these engines running at around 12:1 or richer. With the exception of the header Dyno and it was just over 12:1.
The rest of you statement is true, except the bold type, and proves the point that a cooler engine can produce more power.
It has always been my position that a header will lean out the mixture, why introduce that?
That is exactly what we need. My car ran down to 11.7:1 on the dyno. If I could lean it to 12.3:1 that would make more power. Mater of fact I gained 19 hp when I disconnected the air box from the throttle body. My A/F went to 12.0:1.


By the way the temperature gauge in F-body cars from 2000 to 2002 does not read actual engine temperature they are in effect dummy lights. They move in stages as told to by the computer. They are no better than a gauge that goes from cooled to hot. How do you think the guy measured his coolant temp? He didn’t.
I traded in a 2002 Z28 on the Magnum RT.

Long story short I am simple saying that as long as you don’t cool the engine down enough to go into the closed loop program you will not damage the engine.
 
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