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Discussion Starter #1
Since staying at home because of the corona virus pandemic, I've been rooting around oil weight, filters, etc. Again I've had way to much time on my hands. Here are a few conclusions from sorting through many, many, and way to posts. Comments on each item are welcomed.

Oil Weight - Seems the recommended 0W-20 oil is not the only weight oil used for the 5.7 MDS engines. Seems that 5W-30 oil is works without any problems as well. Some folks also listed 0W-20 to 0-40. Not a lot of comments on the last 2 types though. Being an old person where 10W-30 and 10W-40 was common many years ago, I'll probably switch from 5W-20 to 5W-30. I still have some desire to go to 10W-40 for a pushrod engine, but not a good idea. Seems that 0W-20 oil has more to do with CAFE standards by FCA.

Oil Filters - I'm amazed about how many folks have cut apart perfectly good filters to explore their innards and give opinions on the best filters. Seems some actually have more time and money than I do... Standard paper filter elements are good for conventional oils. Synthetic filter material type filters are preferred for synthetic oils. All thing being equal, the paper types tend to degrade quicker than synthetic types. Thus extended oil change/filter intervals are not recommended. Manufacturers do not use the same standards when oil filtration efficiently is listed. Some use 97 or 99% at 30 or 40 microns. The high end quality filters like Royal Purple, Mobil Oil, K & N typically will show anyway from 96-98.9 % at 20 or 25 microns (smaller dirt particles). Filtration, especially with our engines with MDS lifters or high more precise tolerances do well with anything more than 25 microns not being filtered as far as wear and tear goes.

There are different types of synthetic materials used. "Micro Glass" filter material seems to be the most efficient at filtration and less restrictive to oil flow! I could only find two oil filter brands, Royal Purple and Syn-Lube that list "Micro Glass" media. They have a 98.7% and 99% at 20 micron efficiency. Both list this using the SAE J806 standards. I'll spend the extra $$ for the Royal Purple filter Filters - Royal Purple. Although Syn-Lube, SynLube Lube‑4‑Life Motor Oil Filters, is more efficient, the cost is substantially more. I'm a bit surprised that Mobil 1, K&N doesn't list this material or aren't as specific in the filtration efficiency.






Air Filters - K & N, AFE high flow air filters are great at allowing more air volume into the engine. Paper based like Baldwin, Wix, Purolator, or most other quality brand filters will filter more dirt and and have a higher dirt holding capacity without as much air flow reduction than high flow filters. Unless the engine has serious mods and used at high rpms the increased power from the high flow filters are minimal. Being I'm an old guy that only occasionally runs the engine above the normal 1500 - 1800 rpm range, I'm going with cleaner than faster like the Baldwin. Here's a related study that seems to make sense. K&N Air Filter Review - Debunking the Myths (and why OEM is better).

Oil Catch Cans - I'm pretty convinced from what I've read from Mad Dog and others that catch cans are a good addition. Does anyone have a brand recommendation?
 

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Oil Weight - Seems the recommended 0W-20 oil is not the only weight oil used for the 5.7 MDS engines. Seems that 5W-30 oil is works without any problems as well. Some folks also listed 0W-20 to 0-40. Not a lot of comments on the last 2 types though. Being an old person where 10W-30 and 10W-40 was common many years ago, I'll probably switch from 5W-20 to 5W-30. I still have some desire to go to 10W-40 for a pushrod engine, but not a good idea. Seems that 0W-20 oil has more to do with CAFE standards by FCA.

Interesting. The owner's manual for my 300C (and my Charger, for that matter) both specify 5W-20 and say that "MOPAR® SAE 5W-30 engine oil approved to Chrysler Material Standard MS-6395 such as Pennzoil® or Shell Helix® may be used when SAE 5W-20 engine oil meeting MS-6395 is not available." Personally, I've always taken that to mean, "5W-30 is better than no oil at all". There's plenty of anecdotal evidence of 5w-30 leading to failure of the MDS system, which may or may not return to normal with use of 5w-20. Personally, I run 0w-20, because with the oils I run, there doesn't seem to be much difference in specs between the two except that 0w-20 flows better when cold, and I live in a relatively cold climate. But I wouldn't suggest 5w-30, unless you have an oil change due and you can't find any 5w-20 or 0w-20.

In terms of oil filters, I generally use Motorcraft FL820S for the base-mounted silicone ADBV and generally solid construction for a low price. I had a bad experience with a Mobil 1 M1-210A , which caused a serious leak. Turned out I wasn't the only one with this problem, so I stay away from them now. But there are plenty of good quality, low cost filters out there, like NAPA Silver and Purolator PureOne, with the textured grip. You might be interested to know (if you didn't already) that a number of folks have reported cutting open Walmart Supertech filters and discovering that they use synthetic media.

My Charger came with a K&N drop in air filter. Couldn't wait to get that dirty, drippy mess out of there and put in a regular paper filter.
 

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I am an old guy too, and all 3 of my Hemi's are somewhat modified for performance and fuel economy. I too live in a colder winter climate, but it also gets to 110* and more so over 100* for at least a month to two months in the summer. Over the years I've run 0W-20, 5W-20, four quarts of 5W-20 and three quarts of 5W-30......mostly Mobil One synthetic (never fossil oils), and have found on my two 5.7's that every one of those combinations have zero effect on the operation of the MDS.....still get 90-95% active time on the highway with both. The heavier weight oils do have a slight adverse effect on fuel economy though. All this being said, I have recently began running Redline 5W-20 synthetic in the 5.7's and Redline 5W-40 in the 6.1 (calls for 0W-40), mostly because it has over 170K on it. Running Redline in the 6.1 is what got me hooked. My Son works on a lot of German vehicles and many of them call for Redline 5W-40. After he did this change on my 6.1 I immediately noticed that the engine was quieter than with Mobil One. Hence, they all have Redline in almost everything (engine, transmission, differential(s)) now.

As far as oil filters go, I've pretty much stuck with Mobil One or K and N almost forever, without issue. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

On air filters, I think I've tried almost all of the so-called high performance ones (K and N, True Flo, AFE, etc.) and have also run the stock type filters periodically. Back in July 2013 Mopar Muscle Magazine did an article on power/torque losses created by the different accessories, as well as engine oils and air filters. Here's what the said about oils and filters:

--They ran 20W-50 first and then Amzoil 5W-20 and found that with the lighter weight Amzoil they gained 16.4 horsepower and 12 lb-ft of torque and in switching to the lighter oil lost only 5 PSI oil pressure. This, I am sure would make a pretty fair difference in fuel economy too, but on my Hemi's the difference was less than one mpg.
--On air filters, they first ran the engine with no filter and then with a 3 in. paper element filter, and then with an AirAid 4 in. tapered high flow air filter. The paper element robbed the engine of 14.4 horsepower and 10.4 lb-ft of torque and the high flow filter only lost 5.9 horsepower at peak and 5.5 lb-ft torque.

IMO, the bottom line(s) is/are, first, if your engine is mostly stock, I'd pretty much stick with the oil weight that the factory recommends and I'd also use nothing but a good synthetic on our MDS equipped Hemi's. For me, it tends to work noticeably better. Second, don't cheap out on the oil filters, UNLESS you change your oil every 3000 miles or so. Personally I go 5000 miles between engine oil changes and 30,000 mile intervals on everything else.....transmissions, differentials, transfer cases. Remember that oil and filters are a lot cheaper than the components they are protecting.

As far as air filters go, a good stock type filter is more than adequate if you're not somewhat modified and/or interested in the slight improvements from a high flow unit. I've settled on AFE high flow filters on my 5.7's and, on the 6.1, only because I had one laying around, use a K and N that is fairly dirty......they tend to work a little better when they're this way and not heavily oil soaked.

Not covered by the Mopar Muscle Magazine, but addressed by the OP is the catch can. The 5.7 Hemi's are infamous for having one of the worst Vapor Recovery Systems of any modern V-8......especially the early model ones. An ineffective PCV system can also adversely affect both performance and fuel economy. I have them on both of my 5.7's and, especially in the winter months, they are very effective at catching the better share of oil/condensation that gets by the PCV Valve and enters the intake, combustion and exhaust tracts of the engine. In the damp winter months, I've filled the 4 oz. container with oil/condensation (mayonaise or latte) in as little as 800 miles. On my fairly modified 5.7 Jeep GCO, I even went so far as adding a second PCV Valve in series with the stock one and the catch can. It really hasn't made any significant difference. I do not have a catch can on the 6.1, as it doesn't seem to be anywhere near as bad a system as the 5.7's. If you have a 5.7 and the back side of your throttle body butterfly is all gunked up with caked/baked on oil and there are oil puddles in the intake manifold plenum (bet it does), you should consider picking up a catch can of some sort. Personally, I use Billet Techanologies units, but there are many different ones available, some good and some not so good. From another DCX/FCA forum, here's a response by Mike at Diablosport, a popular tuner maker, to a question on the need for a good performing catch can on our Hemi's.

"No, this is where I comment on lost power due to oil contamination in the intake tract/combustion chamber. I will assure you that after having seen as many logs of as many HEMIs as we have here at DiabloSport, not to mention the numerous HEMI vehicles we have had on our dyno for R&D, I can say, without a doubt, that the HEMI's PCV/Oil Vapor control is the worst of anything we deal with. All you have to do is pull your intake manifold to see the puddles of oil collected in there, and realize that it eventually gets in the combustion chamber, and oil don't like to burn, thus, detonation occurs.

There is no gimmick here. HEMI's have KR issues. The KR issues are 99% of the time contributed to by oil contamination in the intake charge, reducing the effective octane in the combustion chamber, and leading to a loss of performance.

Plenty of people have seen solid power gains on even stock vehicles when getting rid of an oil issue by adding a catch can that works properly."

An example of his contamination comments, below are pix of the intake ports on both of my 5.7's right after pulling them off the engines, the Jeep probably ran fossil oil with no catch can for the first 49K of it's life before I bought it......had about 109K when heads pulled. That crap in the ports was sticky and gooie, like crude oil. The other head is off my 5.7 LX which has had a catch can and run synthetic oil in it for about 80K.....only 5K on fossil oil and maybe 10K without a catch can:
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Discussion Starter #4
Wow Magnuman!

Those intake photo's have convince me that catch cans are on my list for sure! I'm thinkin of pulling the manifold and cleaning!

I had AFE on my 03 Hemi 1500 and cat back Borla. Both good quality and with a tuner. I did notice a seat of pants torque/hp increase. Not really that substantial to so the same for LX.

From what I have read and seen on other sites, the Hemi lifter (increase tick) and cam failures maybe are from insufficient lubrication. I've decided to switch from Mobil 1 to Redline as well. Actually start using Redline on my Bmw. Although both are good oils, Redline is ester based and have high moly content. If the issues are related to lubrication and inherent design flaw both ester and moly content help. I'm going to switch to W5-30 for the thicker on the metal parts. I've read that newer hemi engine management systems with through a code if the oil is too thick! I'll report once I change over from W5-20 and issues or MDS operation changes.


All filters mentioned are very good and have used them before. Seems that the micro glass based filter material allow for increased filtration and higher oil flow! I think Royal Purple, M1, and K&N are all made by Champion. The lower flow restriction should help lubrication as well.

Indeed, the differential and trans are also due for a change. With Redline fluids.

Thanks
 

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Wow Magnuman!

Those intake photo's have convince me that catch cans are on my list for sure! I'm thinkin of pulling the manifold and cleaning!

I had AFE on my 03 Hemi 1500 and cat back Borla. Both good quality and with a tuner. I did notice a seat of pants torque/hp increase. Not really that substantial to so the same for LX.

From what I have read and seen on other sites, the Hemi lifter (increase tick) and cam failures maybe are from insufficient lubrication. I've decided to switch from Mobil 1 to Redline as well. Actually start using Redline on my Bmw. Although both are good oils, Redline is ester based and have high moly content. If the issues are related to lubrication and inherent design flaw both ester and moly content help. I'm going to switch to W5-30 for the thicker on the metal parts. I've read that newer hemi engine management systems with through a code if the oil is too thick! I'll report once I change over from W5-20 and issues or MDS operation changes.


All filters mentioned are very good and have used them before. Seems that the micro glass based filter material allow for increased filtration and higher oil flow! I think Royal Purple, M1, and K&N are all made by Champion. The lower flow restriction should help lubrication as well.

Indeed, the differential and trans are also due for a change. With Redline fluids.

Thanks
I am not familiar with the later model Hemi's vapor recovery system and don't know if it is better, the same or worse than the early Hemi's. Before yanking the intake manifold you may want to look at the back side of the throttle body butterfly and the intake plenum before you do it. If there is a lot of contamination and oil puddling, then go for it.

It's also my understanding that the later models are the ones that have more lifter/cam issues due to lubrication issues.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi folks,

I thought I'd share a YouTube thread that describes what may be the design flaw regarding 5.7 lifter/cam failures. I've gone through lots of videos that explains the repairs but not the cause. However, there are lots of theories on the cause web like needing lifter upgrades, etc. However this post seems to be the most sensible.


I found the above on the Ram Forum. This post is quite interesting. Like some on the post, my first reaction to watching the video was why did I buy this car!!!!

However, I could not recall many engines from other manufacturers that were truly bullet proof. Either Mopars or others. By the way, my 72' 318 Duster had a much louder lifter tick than my 300c. My 440 Cu didn't have valve noise. Go figure.

By the way, I'm not necessarily computer proficient. so if you can't just click on these links and have to find other means, I in advance apologize.

 

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I've seen this video before, but I am not so sure how big a problem this is with at least the early Hemi's. I have heard of some problems with the later (09 and up) Hemi's though. My two early (05 and 06) Hemi's have had aftermarket performance cams in them for about 9-10 years now and I've not had any problems. My 06 300C SRT8, on the other hand, has had cam/lifter problems, but I know what caused them. The vehicle used to belong to my Grandson, and he used to religiously have the oil changed every 3000 miles. The problem was the quickie oil change place (Walmart) didn't have a clue what they were doing and my Grandson didn't realize it until it was too late. The 6.1 engine is suppose to use 7 quarts of 0W-40 synthetic only. Wallie World never used synthetic (always fossil oil), never put 7 quarts i (usually just 5 quarts) and never used the correct 0W-40 (always 10W-30). It took 20,000 miles of this to completely destroy the cam and lifters. i bought it from him for what he owed on it, because no one would give him anything for it in trade because of the lifter noise. By then the lifter noise was pretty bad.....almost embarrassingly loud. When I tore it down, all cam lobes were toast and 10 of the 16 roller lifters were scored, galled or pitted. One lifter had stopped rolling (the noisy one) and had ground a big flat spot on the roller.....see pictures below:




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Since installing a new Comp Cams performance cam and all new lifters and now running 5W-40 Redline synthetic, I've put about 9,000 miles on it and it runs like a raped ape again....a really fun car to drive, so much so that it is now my daily driver and the 5.7's sit in the garage for a later time. It'll help preserve them ...... 06 Jeep has 114K, Magnum just turned over 90K, and the 300 now has 173K on it.
 

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Hi folks,

I thought I'd share a YouTube thread that describes what may be the design flaw regarding 5.7 lifter/cam failures. I've gone through lots of videos that explains the repairs but not the cause. However, there are lots of theories on the cause web like needing lifter upgrades, etc. However this post seems to be the most sensible.
I've seen it, I'm not impressed with his analysis.


Two things to note, the only flat lobes are those with bad lifters. Also note the color of the camshaft, it's not suffering from oil starvation, it's well oiled. IMHO, the hemi suffers the same flaw the pentastar followers suffer, bad rollers. Additionally this engine does NOT have MDS to muddle the lifter issue.

There is an updated follower part number for the pentastar, I don't know if it's the "fix" or not. Tony does note there's no positive lubrication of the roller portion of the lifter, that seems to be the nature of roller lifters no matter what company makes them.
 

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I neglected to mention Tony fails to note the connecting rods have "squirters" to oil the camshaft and cylinder walls. There's a constant vortex of air and oil in the crankcase of a running engine. Additionally if this was a design flaw, wouldn't they all fail? Many accounts of Hemi's accumulating high mileage without wiping out the camshaft.
 

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I am pretty sure only the 6.1's have the oil squirters.

I like the idea of keeping the engine RPM above about 1500 RPM. With the cams I have in all of mine the RPM needs to be a little higher anyway to keep from lugging the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
While waiting for the catch can to arrive, I Sea Foamed the intake and clean the throttle body. Either the spray Sea Foam worked extremely well or I didn't have much build up in the first place. The car has 55k on it. After the Sea Foam spray the throttle body was almost clean. Some carbon where the plate edges meet the body and at the hinges needed to be removed. The engine roughness when the MDS is activated did not change at all after the cleaning. Maybe driving like an old person works the best to keep the carbon down (kidding)!

I too think running at least 1,500 is a good idea. I'll be using the "sport mode" console option a lot more consistently!
 

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While waiting for the catch can to arrive, I Sea Foamed the intake and clean the throttle body. Either the spray Sea Foam worked extremely well or I didn't have much build up in the first place. The car has 55k on it. After the Sea Foam spray the throttle body was almost clean. Some carbon where the plate edges meet the body and at the hinges needed to be removed. The engine roughness when the MDS is activated did not change at all after the cleaning. Maybe driving like an old person works the best to keep the carbon down (kidding)!

I too think running at least 1,500 is a good idea. I'll be using the "sport mode" console option a lot more consistently!
What kind of catch can did you order? Your later model Hemi may not have the same crappy vapor recovery system that the early ones have, so you may not have as big a problem as we early guys do. What kind of oil have you been using? I know you were kidding but, being an older guy too, most of the time I drive it like I stole it.....at least one or two (or more) short WOT blasts to 50-60 mph. It's amazing,that, at my age, I still having feeling enough in my arse to enjoy the seat of the pants thrill. Guess I am really just a big older (wife says we're not old, but "older") kid. Have fun liberally massaging that "sport mode" console. Wish our early ones had that.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I ordered the catch can from Billet Technology. This car was the dealers wife's car for the first 32k miles in Buffalo NY. Probably Mopar Blend. I used Redline 5w-20 and will be giving 5W-30 a try. A bit concerned about lifter tick camshaft wear. From what I've read on other sites, 5w-30 doesn't harm the MDS..
 

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Billet Tech. makes a good unit. That's what I have on both of my 5.7's and I am very happy with them. Let me know how all 5W-30 works. I think I said above that I've tried it with 3 quarts of 5W-30 and 4 of 5W-20 without issue, but never tried it with a full dose of 5W-30. How bad is your lifter noise? Does it change when engine is hot or cold? Is one or more cylinders worse than the others? If so, which ones are more noisy?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I'm actually more concerned about long term wear and tear. When cold and not used for a few days, passenger side I think cylinder 4 a very loud rap. It quiets down in about 30 seconds (oil gets back in). When warm, the taping is pretty even, although not injector clicking. Just about the sound of solid lifters properly adjusted!

I'll post on the 5w-30. I'm thinking 5W-20 is more about CAFE requirements than MDS....
 

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No. 4 is an MDS cylinder and that may be where there is the beginning of an issue. Does your MDS ALWAYS work as it should. There have been problems with the locking pin on some of the MDS valve lifters but, I believe most have been more attributed to lack or or no maintenance being done and/or the wrong weight/type oil used in the vehicle. I don't think you'd have an issue like this, as you're already running Redline synthetic.

On both of my 5.7's the MDS begins working at about an engine temperature of 105-115* and is pretty consistent on activation/deactivation from then on. With the cams I have in both my 5.7's, they both have that "solid lifter" sound to a small degree but, on both, it is consistent and is equal on all cylinders. Occasionally I'll get a P0300 DTC on the Jeep, but I never find anything amiss and plugs, coils and compression are all good. I also never feel a misfire and it always runs strong. On this one, I am starting to keep track of how often this happens in the event these events may be the beginning of some sort of lifter problem. I think this may be the most logical place to start, especially if I can isolate the misfire to an MDS cylinder.

Some folks swear by putting a can of Seafoam into the oil about 300-500 miles before changing it. They claim it keeps the MDS lifters free of varnish and gummy deposits. Don't know if I believe it though, but I guess it's possible. Personally, I've never been a big believer of additives, except adding a bottle of Techron to the fuel about once every 3000 miles or so. Oh, when I had the cam/lifter problem with my 300C SRT8 (no MDS though) that I bought from my Grandson, I did put a can of Seafoam in it as part of my effort to get the noise to stop but, of course it didn't do a thing, as the cam and lifters were already too far gone.

I am looking forward to the results of your "experiment" with the 5W-20.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So far the MDS works as it should. It is consistent to the road conditions. Techron was always the choice for many years. I honestly can't say there was any measurable difference in performance after using the Sea Foam spray. Again the throttle body and what I could check was quite clean when I checked. Just a bit of Sea Foam residue. I wondering if a catch can really is necessary. I'll report on the 5W-30 weight change.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
A short update on 5W-30 oil. Very little difference with the MDS as well as the "Hemi Tick" as of yet. No engine codes etc. The most change that the oil pressure seems about 2 lbs. higher than 5W-20.

I'll give it some miles and if anything occurs good or bad I'll post.
 

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Thanks for the update. My guess would be that there may be a very slight decrease in fuel economy with the heavier weight oil
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Hi Folks,

I can't believe its been 3 months since I changed to 5w-30 Redline oil instead of the recommended 5w-20 weight. Even more surprising is that it took me this long to barely put 2,000 miles since the oil change. Anyway here's what I've noticed, or didn't:

1. The engine seems a bit quieter now. There seem to be some slight tapping and clicking which may very well be the injectors and a typical push rod engine. Depending how long the car sits (days) some momentary tapping.

2. No noticeable effects to MDS. No codes and no delays or noticeable difference in performance. I would prefer that this system be disabled. In time...

3. Oil pressure has remained approximately 5 lbs. higher than with 5w-20 weight oil. I wasn't able to accurately measure a difference in fuel economy. Different routes etc. However, although not noticeable I'm sure it is slightly less.

Reasons I'm staying with 5w-30 oil.

1. If I was really giving a priority to fuel mileage, I would not have bought a 300c with a Hemi V8....

2. When introduce in 04' the specification was 5w-30. A thicker oil does reduce the rate of flow of oil in bearings. I know of no specification change for the crank bearings or elsewhere. It does protect a bit better on contact surfaces such as pushrods on lifters and effects to the camshafts.

3 When MDS was first released 5w-20 was recommended and 5w-30 was acceptable. A slight increase in mileage seems more for a CAFE measurement than the MDS operation. Most sites that I reviewed seemed to indicate later model Hemi's had lifter/camshaft problems.

Like brands of oil, oil weight is also debatable. I also paused at first when deciding to not follow the recommended oil. By the way, without codes being thrown for wrong oil type or weight, I question if we have a warrantee issue. I'm at 57k now!

I also agree with Magnum that proper maintenance is even more important to reduce issues of wear and tear. Regardless, change that oil and filter regularly as recommended!!!!





I know we all have
 
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