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Brake rotors warped - anyone else?

14K views 25 replies 14 participants last post by  LWOOD 
#1 ·
Dealer says front brake rotors are warped (which I believe based on vibration/noise when braking) at 16K miles but calls it a "comfort" issue rather than under-engineered brakes, and wants me to pay to have the rotors resurfaced. Is this reasonable, or a rip-off?

I experienced warped rotors on a car 5 years ago at only about 4K miles, and the dealer gladly fixed the problem for free, as it was a problem common to that vehicle.
On a few other cars, I've experienced warped rotors after 30K miles and gladly paid for resurfacing as just normal wear & tear.
Just seems like I shouldn't be shelling out cash to repair a 10-month old car.
 
#2 ·
TwoHemis said:
Dealer says front brake rotors are warped (which I believe based on vibration/noise when braking) at 16K miles but calls it a "comfort" issue rather than under-engineered brakes, and wants me to pay to have the rotors resurfaced. Is this reasonable, or a rip-off?

I experienced warped rotors on a car 5 years ago at only about 4K miles, and the dealer gladly fixed the problem for free, as it was a problem common to that vehicle.
On a few other cars, I've experienced warped rotors after 30K miles and gladly paid for resurfacing as just normal wear & tear.
Just seems like I shouldn't be shelling out cash to repair a 10-month old car.
I have had lots of warped rotors on various cars over the years, especially sub-compacts. However, warping doesn't seem to be a problem on the 300, especially the C version (big rotors; ceramic pads; good heat dissipation).

Unless you drive with your left foot resting on the brake pedal, I think the dealer should take care of this problem at 10 months and 16k. It is not normal wear.
 
#4 ·
Except I can cound on one hand the # of "hard stops" I have made in 23000 miles and my front rotors are warped as well...it happened about 18000 miles. Dealer said he would resurface them for free. I haven't followed up with him on it. I will probably just buy new rotors and put them on. They just warp easier once you take the material off them.
 
#9 ·
TwoHemis said:
Dealer says front brake rotors are warped (which I believe based on vibration/noise when braking) at 16K miles but calls it a "comfort" issue rather than under-engineered brakes, and wants me to pay to have the rotors resurfaced. Is this reasonable, or a rip-off?

I experienced warped rotors on a car 5 years ago at only about 4K miles, and the dealer gladly fixed the problem for free, as it was a problem common to that vehicle.
On a few other cars, I've experienced warped rotors after 30K miles and gladly paid for resurfacing as just normal wear & tear.
Just seems like I shouldn't be shelling out cash to repair a 10-month old car.
Before you pay anyone any money to do anything to your rotors, try rebedding the brakes. Follow my instructions here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm. This will often cure what you are calling "warped" rotors.

The real problem is that you have uneven pad transfer on your rotors resulting in thickness variation, not runout. We see this all the time. The symptom is brake judder and most people have a mental model that includes excessive runout (or "warping") of the rotors. This incorrect mental model is only strengthened when replacing the rotors or turning them on a brake lathe makes the symptoms go away. Think about it. If the problem is pad transfer resulting in thickness variation, then replacing the rotors or turning them will also make the problem go away. But the lack of understanding of the root cause results in procedures that encourage formation of new deposits and recurrence of judder. Thus the additional myth that turning rotors encourages them to warp faster!

Read this tech article and see if it makes sense: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

If that doesn't convince you, then ask yourself why this technique for curing brake judder works like magic for all my racing customers: http://www.zeckhausen.com/avoiding_brake_judder.htm

I will often run into someone who insists the problem is warped rotors. If that person has a big brake kit or a car with very expensive rotors, such as the BMW M3 or M5, I will install a set of Hawk Blue track pads and tell them to drive around for an hour on the street, using only light to moderate braking. At the end of the hour, the "warped" rotors are fixed! If they were really warped, there's no way an abrasive race pad would fix them. What happens is that the Hawk Blue pads chew away the uneven pad transfer material. They polish the rotors clean in very short order and the judder is gone. That experience is usually the breakthrough required for my customer to give up on the false belief that warping of rotors is a common occurrence.

The practical take-away from all of this is that there are steps you can take to prevent brake judder. Proper bedding of the brakes, as described in the link at the top of this post, will put a smooth, pad transfer layer on the rotors. This provides all the benefits described in the article, including quieter braking, longer rotor life, and better pedal feel. But most importantly, it protects you from getting partial transfer layer and the resulting build-up of material at the leading edge of this partial layer, ultimately causing judder. By bedding the brakes and occasionally doing some late, hard braking to keep that transfer layer maintained, you will avoid the curse of, what so many people incorrectly refer to as, warped rotors.
 
#10 ·
Dave, that's an excellent write up, thanks! I have just over 2000 on my 300C, would I still benefit from bedding my brakes at this stage?

How's Maplewood and good old Jersey? I was born and raised there, originally from Lyndhurst and that NAPA store on Ridge Road is my uncle's place. My family still lives there and I try to visit twice a year or so.:cool:
 
#12 ·
BobCav said:
Dave, that's an excellent write up, thanks! I have just over 2000 on my 300C, would I still benefit from bedding my brakes at this stage?
Yes, you would. The brakes won't bed by themselves, regardless of how you drive or how many miles are on the car. I was testing a pre-production 350Z a couple years ago that had been used by the media. If anyone is hard on a car, it's Road & Track! Yet the brakes felt weak and were helped by a quick bedding session. You can see my write-up here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

How's Maplewood and good old Jersey? I was born and raised there, originally from Lyndhurst and that NAPA store on Ridge Road is my uncle's place. My family still lives there and I try to visit twice a year or so.:cool:
Maplewood is stunning right now, as all the flowers are blooming and the trees are filling out. It's the best time of the year - unless you have allergies. :eek:
 
#13 ·
LWOOD said:
Ok Dave, I'll try it tonight on the Parkway on my way home if all the Bennys aren't in my way.
P.S. to any Bennys, please, please don't take offense. Keep coming to Jersey and spending money. Thank you.
I would suggest finding a secondary road where traffic can't come up on you suddenly with a high closing speed. Here's where I bed the brakes: http://tinyurl.com/9revn
 
#14 ·
TwoHemis said:
Dealer says front brake rotors are warped (which I believe based on vibration/noise when braking) at 16K miles but calls it a "comfort" issue rather than under-engineered brakes, and wants me to pay to have the rotors resurfaced. Is this reasonable, or a rip-off?
Just seems like I shouldn't be shelling out cash to repair a 10-month old car.
After meeting with dealer's service director and taking a technician for a test drive, they agreed brakes needed work. They resurfaced the front rotors and sanded the pads, for free (maybe because my C has been in the shop for about 3 weeks total in the last 11 months for a variety of problems?).....and it drives good as new!

DZeckhausen - thanks for the detailed brake bedding info.
 
#16 ·
AVANTI4840 said:
Resurfacing may have corrected the problem, but that procedure reduces the thickness of the rotor, in which may cause them to heat quicker , resulting in warping the rotors again even quicker. Chrysler Dealer should have replaced the rotors.
It's a common misconception, reinforced by the fact that the customer usually fails to bed in the brakes again after a rotor resurfacing job. Thus, the cycle of pad deposits is repeated and the customer returns with a judder complaint a week later.

See my earlier post: http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=74652&postcount=9

The rotors were not warped before and they will not warp again. The problem is thickness variation due to pad deposits. The solution is the selection of proper friction material (pads) and bedding the brakes as described here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm
 
#17 ·
Dave,
I was able to do this and it did lessen the problem to a great degree. I think I needed to do a few more cycles though, as there is still a minor pulsation. But it is at least showing improvement. Thanks for the money saving tip! I would encourage anyone who is unhappy with the performance of their brakes and/or believes their rotors are warped to try this bedding process before you do anything else.
-Bill
 
#18 ·
Northern Rider said:
I have had lots of warped rotors on various cars over the years, especially sub-compacts. However, warping doesn't seem to be a problem on the 300, especially the C version (big rotors; ceramic pads; good heat dissipation).

Unless you drive with your left foot resting on the brake pedal, I think the dealer should take care of this problem at 10 months and 16k. It is not normal wear.

At 16K miles, he is outside of the limits for the standard Chrysler exclussion on rotors (1yr or 12K miles). I'd like to think (and believe) that the "C" does not have this problem - but it seems it aint so.

I've said before - and you can hear it here again... "it's a Chrysler - get used to it!"
 
#19 ·
obiwan said:
After a hard stop, if you sit still with your foot on the brake, it bakes the heat into the rotors which will induce the warpage. Kick it into neutral and take your foot off the pedel.
Excellent tip Obiwan!
 
#20 ·
DZeckhausen said:
The solution is the selection of proper friction material (pads) and bedding the brakes as described here: http://www.zeckhausen.com/bedding_in_brakes.htm

Dave,

On the selection of pads... do you recommend against the OEM? IE - has Chrysler been outfitting it's bake designs and assemblies with inferior pads?
 
#21 ·
obiwan said:
After a hard stop, if you sit still with your foot on the brake, it bakes the heat into the rotors which will induce the warpage. Kick it into neutral and take your foot off the pedel.
Leaving your foot pressed down hard on the brake pedal following a long, hard stop may cause a judder problem, but not because of rotor "warpage." What really happens is that you bake a pad "imprint" on your rotor. If the rotor is hot enough, like when you come in to the pit after a few fast laps, you can actually bond the pad material to the rotor and delaminate the pads.

High speed driving (race) instructors always tell their students to take a cool-down lap before coming into the pits, then put the car in neutral or park and stay off the brake pedal until the rotors cool off.

The baked on pad imprint can act like the grain of sand in an oyster. Over time, additional pad material will build up on this spot until you start to feel vibration under braking, due to the thickness variation.

Bottom line: the advice is good. But the underlying physics is different than what was described.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Dave, I followed your bedding process on Friday. I wasn't experiencing any real problems on my 300C other than the pedal feel was softer than I prefer.

It really works! Pedal feel is much better.

The real proof came on the weekend. A buddy of mine just bought a 2003 Porsche 911 cabriolet C4. We were detailing it on Saturday when I suggested he get to a track and do driver's school. I said I'd go as well to brush up.

Well, the next thing I know, 3 of us pile into my 300C (the Porsche was too small to hold us all) and we head up from Ottawa to LeCircuit at Mount Tremblant. The Rolex endurance series was already running and we wanted to see some of it. The drive normally takes 2 hours and the road up into the mountains is rough in places and has lots of tight twisties - more than a few, off camber.

The first section was freeway with the lazer lads out collect tax money. My buddy was complaining he should have taken the 911 - we're gonna miss the race - yada yada...

Off the freeway - on to the twisties - esp turned off - time to test the bedded in ceramic pads. As you know Dave, it's all about exit speed.

Hard into the corners; brake late - small drift to overcome understeer; power on coming out. What a blast!

We picked up a 5 series bimmer who climbed up our tail coming out of a village. then we hit the real tight twisties and whoop-de-doos. The last image I had of the bimmer in my rear view was him over the centreline frantically sawing his steering wheel - out of control.

My brakes were awesome. Hardly any fade, good modulation - I could predict the rate - and they never let me down.

We made the track in 1 hour and 33 minutes. the 300C really does need a grab handle for the front passenger. Got to watch those awesome Daytona Prototypes and the GT3 guys bang it out.

Thanks for the tip, Dave. You rock!



(LEGAL DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE NARRATIVE IS PURELY FICTIONAL.NR DOES NOT CONDONE ROAD RACING; DRIVING OVER THE LEGAL LIMIT; OR ANY OTHER POLITICALLY INCORRECT BEHAVIOR. NR RECOMMENDS THAT SENSIBLE PEOPLE WILL DRIVE A PRIUS OR TAKE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. OR BETTER YET, SURROUND YOUR BODY WITH BUBBLE WRAP, GET IN BED AND PULL THE COVERS OVER YOUR HEAD)
 
#23 ·
Northern Rider said:
(LEGAL DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE NARRATIVE IS PURELY FICTIONAL.NR DOES NOT CONDONE ROAD RACING; DRIVING OVER THE LEGAL LIMIT; OR ANY OTHER POLITICALLY INCORRECT BEHAVIOR. NR RECOMMENDS THAT SENSIBLE PEOPLE WILL DRIVE A PRIUS OR TAKE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. OR BETTER YET, SURROUND YOUR BODY WITH BUBBLE WRAP, GET IN BED AND PULL THE COVERS OVER YOUR HEAD)
Love the story... love the disclaimer MORE!!
 
#24 ·
Have the same pulsing problem... It's really bad around 65mph when I apply them even lightly... Didn't think the C had ceramic pads so I assumed warpage....

I've used "premium" pads in the past to eliminate these problems before and am guessing that a nice bed in session will fix my problem... Time to find a nice quiet road to do some beating on.

I'll try it out and let you know what happens...
 
#25 ·
I am having the feel of rotors needing turned as well at only 15,000 and less than 5 hard stops. I have never experienced rotors wearing out faster than pads, so I was really disappointed and afrid I was going to have to spend money or fight with the dealer on this. I will definitely try the bedding test when I get a chance. Thanks to Zeck for the info.
 
#26 ·
Well as a follow-up, I was able to somewhat reduce the shuddering upon light braking at lower speeds but by 25,000 miles it had gotten worse and became excessive. i took the car to an independant mechanic who works on some of my other vehicles. He put the rotors on a mirometer and some other too that measures run out and determined both fronts were warped. I ended up having them resurfaced because he couldn't get a set of new ones. We did do for a high performance aftermarket ceramic pad. My brakes are great 6 thousand later. The pulse was aking me miserable. Now it's like driving my C brand new again. The brakes, tires and alignment have set me back some change, but now the car it sorted the way I want it.
If you guys are having problems at 15-16k like I did, don't let them knock you around...make the dealer do it free.
 
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