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personally, I think the most important part of the brake upgrade is the caliper, but for something mild i think it would work.

i would only go slotted though, drilled weakens the rotor and isn't really necessary unless you are using the brakes for racing and need the extra cooling.
 

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I agree, drilled rotors develop stress cracks that spider out and won't last long, useless for street. I would add that SS lines will improve feel. Even with new calipers, slotted rotors yada yada, stopping distanced may not improve much, of course fade resistance and feel will greatly improve. If a system could show me an improvement in distance from 126 to say 105 on the same day, pavement, and tires then I would be interested. This could translate into real world benefits, I can't remember the last time I had to do 10 full on panic stops in a row.
 

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good point II Kings, SS Lines are crucial in the whole equation. Sometimes just changing pads, SS lines and fluid are enough to make the car feel like it has a full big brake kit. it was surely the case with my STi... stock the brakes were horrible, once i put the lines, pads and fluid in the car felt like it had 14.1" AP Racing 8 Piston Monoblock racing brakes.

Anyone know about SS lines for the Cs? (it may have them already, i don't have my car quite yet so i wouldn't know... 1 hour away, i can feel it getting closer by the minute...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Excellent points and I agree with the SS brake lines/pads that's two of the best upgrades. I was interested in improving slightly over stock to compensate for the 20X8.5's tire/wheel combo I have on order.

I don't think that I need to go with Brembo's for all the money involved, since I don't competition drive the car.
 

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05HemiC said:
Excellent points and I agree with the SS brake lines/pads that's two of the best upgrades. I was interested in improving slightly over stock to compensate for the 20X8.5's tire/wheel combo I have on order.

I don't think that I need to go with Brembo's for all the money involved, since I don't competition drive the car.
Unlike most guys, you are thinking about the increased unsprung weight and inevitable longer stopping distances. It would be good to weigh each combo and compare, if your new wheels are forged the difference may be minor.
 

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Good thread guys, no cross-drilled and SS lines and good pads can make a big difference.
 

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05HemiC said:
Excellent points and I agree with the SS brake lines/pads that's two of the best upgrades. I was interested in improving slightly over stock to compensate for the 20X8.5's tire/wheel combo I have on order.

I don't think that I need to go with Brembo's for all the money involved, since I don't competition drive the car.
the wider 8.5's will give better grip, depending what brand of performance tire you are going with. The brakes on the C seem to handle the extra 20" weight well. You may even get a better stopping distance over the OEM contis.

As others have said, stay away from drilled rotors. they are only for competition cars and they really shorten the rotor life.
 

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The OEM manufacturers like Porsche/Ferrari actually cast the holes into the rotors and then just machine them to clean the up. In the aftermarket they add the holes after the casting/forging process. They may disperse heat and reduce gas build up, but they weaken the rotor. II Kings, didn't you put on SS lines? If so what was the source and do you like them?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
thank you for the advice, I will look for slotted not drilled rotors, that company sell them as well.

I have never heard of these guys has anybody used them?
 

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05HemiC said:
Has anyone heard of these guys?

I understand these aren't going to compete with the Brembo's of the world, but they are a hell of a lot cheaper and wondered if they would be a good mild upgrade?

Has anyone heard of this company?

Here's the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7952641014&category=33564
R1 Concepts either doesn't know much about brake performance or they are being deceptive in their advertising. Let's review some of their eBay ad claims about the "Advantages of Cross-drilled and Slotted Rotors":

-Maximum air circulation for increased cooling

False. The air circulation is a function of the internal vane design and has nothing to do with slots or drilled holes. The rotor acts as a pump using internal vanes to move air from the hub, in between the two friction surfaces, to the outer edge. Slotting has no effect on airflow through the middle. And drilling holes also has no effect. If you are an air molecule in the process of being pumped from the inner to the outer edge, do you think you would suddenly stop and take a 90 degree turn, just because you saw a hole to your right? It just doesn't work that way. Drilling and slotting do not affect airflow through the inside of the rotor.

-Improved wet weather braking

True. Slotting or drilling will improve initial bite in wet weather conditions.

-Mill balanced to prevent vibration

Not relevant to the discussion of slotting and drilling. Most rotors are balanced during manufacturing. This is a good thing, but it's not a feature of drilling or slotting.

-Zinc Plated for protection against rusting

False because these rotors are not plated. Zinc plating does protect the unswept areas of a rotor from rust. And the ad claims in several places that these rotors are plated. But the eBay ad also says: "PREMUIMS ONLY COMES WITH BLACK ELECTRIC COATING ON THE HUB, EDGES, AND VENTS OF THE ROTORS TO HELP IT FROM RUSTING. BASE AREA OF THE ROTORS ARE SILVER. SO NO ZINC PLATING CAN BE DONE TO THESE HIGH PERFORMANCE ROTORS." So the advertisement has internal inconsistencies. They are cutting and pasting boilerplate material.

-Increased brake pad bite

True. Drilling or slotting are both done to increase bite.

-Cooler brakes Pad

Sort of true. The escape path for the gasses does allow the surface of the pads to run slightly cooler. Note the improper grammar. Another hint these are Asian parts.

-Promote longer rotor and pad life

False - Part 1: Drilled or slotted rotors will wear away your brake pads sooner than plain rotors. Think about the analogy of a cheese grater! :)

False - Part 2: On the street, drilled or slotted rotors should last nearly as long as plain rotors. At the track, all types of rotors (plain, slotted, drilled) will develop surface micro cracks which will eventually grow until the rotor fails or is replaced. But drilled rotors do this faster than plain or slotted.

While Brembo, Zimmerman, ATE, Balo, Powerslot and other quality manufacturers do not yet make replacement rotors for the 300C, replacement Brembo rotors for the 300M are only $50 each at Tire Rack. Powerslot rotors (slotted obviously) are available for $95 each.

Eventually the legitimate aftermarket rotor manufacturers will offer a range of products for the 300C. And when Brembo drilled or slotted rotors become available, they won't be much more expensive than these eBay rotors.
 

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LWOOD, I explored SS lines as a custom item, it would have required buying factory rubber as a template and have SS flex lines made with proper fittings. Now that big brake kits are available SS lines should be easy to get from these suppliers which I will look to do Spring though I am satisfied with the brakes except a fairly soft pedal which explains why I have not moved on them yet.
 

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II kings 9:20 said:
LWOOD, I explored SS lines as a custom item, it would have required buying factory rubber as a template and have SS flex lines made with proper fittings. Now that big brake kits are available SS lines should be easy to get from these suppliers which I will look to do Spring though I am satisfied with the brakes except a fairly soft pedal which explains why I have not moved on them yet.
You're right. The StopTech stainless brake lines for the stock 300C calipers are available and I've added them to my web site. I'm still waiting to get official pricing on them, but hope to have an answer later today.

Brake line pricing is a function of the type of fittings, the length, the number of lines (some cars use 4 lines in the rear) and any special adapter brackets required. Based on my experience with other brake line kits, I'm going to guess the front lines are around $60. The rear brake lines will be more expensive, due to the special bracket that's used to anchor them to the inner fender. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say $75. We'll see how close I am when I get final word from StopTech later today.
 

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II kings 9:20 said:
I agree, drilled rotors develop stress cracks that spider out and won't last long, useless for street.
Actually, good quality drilled rotors (not eBay rotors!) from Brembo, Zimmerman, and other major manufacturers are perfectly fine for the street. The cracking you refer to is a phenomenon that affects rotors under track conditions. All rotors on track driven cars will eventually develop micro surface cracks which eventually expand and require the rotors be discarded. The drilled rotors simply do it faster than plain or slotted. On the street, it doesn't happen. If you have crappy rotors that are poorly manufactured and drilled by a third party after the fact, then you may indeed crack them on the street. The best way to avoid that problem is to buy only quality rotors.

Drilled rotors have a marginal advantage over slotted in terms of weight savings. Depending on the rotor size, the weight savings is about 1/4 pound per rotor. And the additional bite provided by drilled rotors is slightly better than that provided by slotted rotors. It's measurable on a brake dyno, but probably not measurable on a butt dyno. :)
I would add that SS lines will improve feel. Even with new calipers, slotted rotors yada yada, stopping distanced may not improve much, of course fade resistance and feel will greatly improve.
Stainless steel braided lines and different calipers will not affect fade resistance. If you want to make your brakes less susceptible to fade you need to either lower the temperature (bigger rotors or brake cooling ducts) or increase the ability of your system to deal with high temperatures (better brake fluid, different brake pads).
If a system could show me an improvement in distance from 126 to say 105 on the same day, pavement, and tires then I would be interested. This could translate into real world benefits, I can't remember the last time I had to do 10 full on panic stops in a row.
Actually, the StopTech 300C kit produced an unusually large reduction in stopping distance over the factory brakes. I remember hearing back from the track session that the lead engineer was almost giddy with excitment over something like a 10 foot reduction. I'll try to get my hands on the raw data (or at least the averages) for the 60, 80, and 100 mph to zero stopping tests. Usually, if you can match the factory stopping distances, you declare victory and go home. Chrysler left lots of room for improvement on the table. This was with a stock 300C using stock wheels and tires. You can see the test methodology used by StopTech in the write-up I did when I helped with the 350Z kit testing: http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

The major benefit of such a system on the street is improved reaction time and better modulation. It helps you shave a chunk of time off the delay from when you hit the brake pedal and when actual braking starts to take place. If you can shave 0.2 seconds off your reaction time in a panic stop at 70 mph, that translates into slightly more than 20 feet. Combine that with a 10 foot improvement over stock, once braking starts to happen, and you're getting some serious panic stop performance improvement.
 

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DZeckhausen said:
Brake line pricing is a function of the type of fittings, the length, the number of lines (some cars use 4 lines in the rear) and any special adapter brackets required. Based on my experience with other brake line kits, I'm going to guess the front lines are around $60. The rear brake lines will be more expensive, due to the special bracket that's used to anchor them to the inner fender. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say $75. We'll see how close I am when I get final word from StopTech later today.
I guess I'm not so good at estimating new aplications. The line prices came in at $119 for the front and $89 for the rear.

The reason the front brake lines are more expensive is partly due to their 22" length vs only 14" length in the rear. Also, a special custom made line locator bracket is installed on the front lines that is three times more expensive to make than the custom bracket in the rear. And finally, the 90 degree, 10mm banjo fittings in the front were much more expensive than the fittings in the rear.

This brake line kit is going to require installation instructions, since the handling of the front ABS sensor wire and the line locator bracket in the rear are not obvious. If you want a clue as to what is involved with installation, you can review the StopTech 300C big brake kit installation instructions, since the lines are identical except for the type of fittings used to connect to the calipers. I've asked StopTech to come up with installation instructions to be included with the lines.

Front: http://www.stoptech.com/installatio...lation Manual_98-241-1470_Rev. A_10-20-04.pdf

Rear: http://www.stoptech.com/installatio...on Manual_98-241-1471_Rev. A_01-26-05_new.pdf


Here's a photo of the rear line kit:

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thank you, Dave, for the technical information and real world applications.

Here's my situation:

Street use, with 20's,

I don't drive recklessly, would you suggest just a front brake upgrade?

thx.
 

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05HemiC said:
Thank you, Dave, for the technical information and real world applications.

Here's my situation:

Street use, with 20's,

I don't drive recklessly, would you suggest just a front brake upgrade?
That depends on why you are doing this modification. If you don't care one bit about the aesthetic beauty of those huge 4-piston calipers and 14" drilled or slotted rotors, then a front-only upgrade will provide most of the benefit.

However, if you do front only, I suggest black or silver calipers rather than red. If you get red calipers, you'll be kicking yourself every time you walk up to the car and see those beautiful front brakes, in contast with the tiny and unattractive stock rear brakes. This will be especially a problem if your 20" wheels have an open spoke design that shows off the brakes.

If you're doing this strictly because of a concern for the safety of your stock brakes with the oversize wheels, then I suggest driving around without a big brake kit for a while. Try a few hard stops and see if it is really as bad as you were afraid it might be. If not, then you've just saved yourself a chunk of change. But if you're after better pedal feel, quicker reaction time, and consistant stopping ability from very high speeds, then the front kit gives you 90% of the benefit of the 4-wheel upgrade. The rear upgrade is very hard to justify in terms of performance benefit per dollar spent. You almost have to be doing the rear upgrade for looks. (Or else money is no object and you want that slightly firmer pedal feel.)

There are advantages to the 4-wheel upgrade in terms of ease of pad changes and the fact that front and rear StopTech calipers use the same pad shape. There's an almost infinite variety of pads available in the D372 shape used by StopTech. And pad swaps are much faster than the stock brakes. That being said, for a strictly street driven car, you probably are not going to be changing pads more often than once every 35-45,000 miles. (Assuming you are older than 19 and don't live in San Francisco at the top of Lombard Street!) :) So those benefits probably aren't going to factor in to your decision process.
 

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Dear Dr. Dave,

I have a question about rotors. In the good old days our rotors outlasted several brake pad changes. In my company fleet vehicles, these days we are pretty much swapping out front rotors with pad changes.

Will the stock rotors on the 300C outlast the pads?

With the Stoptech upgrade - same question.


Signed,

Anxious in Ottawa
 
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