[John Hennessey]

George - you want our company to order 10 sets of headers from Kooks. You want a credit card so you can charge us $13k for your product. You want me to tell people that your product makes "about 30 hp". And now you want to come on this site and try to make me look like an ass? Get some real dyno numbers from a real SRT8 owner on this site - not some other vendor - and impress everybody with your quality product - and you might sell a few sets and not look like a jackass.

But to me, you are a jackass that lost our business by the way you do business. All I ever asked for was to get 1 set of your headers and test them so everyone could see what they produce for power. That is all.

So now go get the dyno numbers you need to validate your product. Just know I wont be buying any from you nor will I recommend them to any of our customers. Not because its not a good product, but because of the way you treated me when I was trying to help you and do business with you.

Now cut the crap and get to the dyno.

 

[John Hennessey]

And while we are in the mood to get real world data to all SRT8 owners on performance, etc. please tell us how the GS SRT8 with YOUR headers and 550 rw hp performed in a recent magazine test? It ran 12.7 @ 114 mph - not too bad. For comparison, our 440 rw hp SRT8 that does not have your headers on it ran 12.8 @ 111 mph last weekend.

I think some would like to know not only what kind of dyno power our products make but what do they run at the track. Well there everyone has some numbers to look at for what its worth.

 

[300CUL8R]

NICE JOHN!!!!! GIT 'EM!!! :notworthy

 

[John Hennessey]

NICE JOHN!!!!! GIT 'EM!!! :notworthy

I really didnt have any bone to pick with Kooks. and i think they make a great product. but i refused to come on here or tell any srt8 owners some made up optomistic dyno numbers for somebody elses headers. now the guy tries to make me look bad because i didnt give him a big order because he didnt have any dyno numbers either. thats the part that pisses me off.

so i dont care if kooks headers make 50 rw hp - they can kiss my ass.

 

[John Hennessey]

maybe another vendor will throw in a traction control defeat kit with each set of Kooks headers sold. throw in some playboy air freshener and you just knocked 8 tenths off your 1/4 mile! :banana:

 

[goddardzilla]

The forum can be the crucible of truth.

By reputation Kooks make a quality product, but you are correct to ask them to send you one to test. Particularly if you are personally willing to invest your own time to test it (time=$)

Now you've explained the situation, and vented, do you have an alternative manufacturer in mind? A product that the manufacturer will supply a single unit to test.

Zilla

 

[John Hennessey]

By reputation Kooks make a quality product, but you are correct to ask them to send you one to test. Particularly if you are personally willing to invest your own time to test it (time=$)

Now you've explained the situation, and vented, do you have an alternative manufacturer in mind? A product that the manufacturer will supply a single unit to test.

Zilla

Dynatech makes a quality product. Somebody on here was working with them. That may offer some promise. My bottom line is that any good long tube header with 3 in. mid pipes and high flow cats might make a power gain. But I will be very surprised if we see anything over 20 rw hp. I am guessing 10-15 rw hp gains over the 390 rw hp most are getting with the magnaflows and cold air kits. $1600 plus labor ($2k+ total investment) is a good chunk of cash to spend for only 10 rw hp. if its 20 rw hp or more then that is a different story. we are already making all of our target power gains for our cars without the benefit of a 1 7/8 in. long tube header. so i am content to sit back and see what kooks or any other header maker can make on the dyno and at the track.

 

[jconnolly1119]

I don't care how good their headers are to be quite honest with you..........................a vendor asked them to send a set, so the VENDOR can get some dyno numbers and test the product before ordering another nine sets for a group buy. As usual, the manufacturer won't post a dyno and seems to have a problem with the vendor doing the dyno himself. they also want to just throw a 30hp gain out there, just for shits and giggles in hopes that the dyno's (which will definatley be done by ANY member of this forum who buys them) come pretty close to the PROJECTED numbers............

and all this can be yours for only $1400 and another $400-500 for the install???????????????



uuuuuuuuummmmmm............I think if I decide to buy something the CLAIMS to make about 30hp, I'll buy one of the CAI's and put the other $1500 in the bank


sounds to me like someone has something to hide.......

Hennessey is actually trying to help them sell a product and all Kook's wants is our money..........they could make the best header on earth .........I think I'll pass

 

[WhiteDiamond]

Wow!!! That is basically an incredible set of posts for such a rather small issue....

I will say that I called Kooks today and asked directly about the headers for my MSRT-8 since we didn't have any reply to the original thread. I will also say that I was told directly that they did not dyno the car. They didn't try to fudge numbers to me, they didn't try to make some up, they told me straight up that they did not dyno them due to the vehicle they got to do fitment on left almost immediately after they got the last bolt and weld in the system.

I am not doubting that somebody may have tried to 'fudge' number to John H., but I think the reaction is way over done.

John, Kooks makes a good product and I think you have over-reacted on this one big time. Just leave the dyno stuff to the last reply you did on the other thread and walk away for a while. I made it fairly clear in my PM to you that I was considering them and wanted to know where your dyno info was coming from in light of my conversation with them. I don't think it needed to go this far.

Mr. Kook and company. Keep up the good work and I guess I will contact you guys directly should headers be the option I take.

Todd

 

[rogue]

Airing their business on a forum instead of taking it up with you over the phone is unprofessional. Kudos to you for being on honest about the numbers and working to find some out for us.

 

[hemiwagn]

throw in some playboy air freshener and you just knocked 8 tenths off your 1/4 mile!

um, when will the grope buy be available? I dont need no dyno data, thankyou.

 

[vvv90]

Wow!!! That is basically an incredible set of posts for such a rather small issue....

I will say that I called Kooks today and asked directly about the headers for my MSRT-8 since we didn't have any reply to the original thread. I will also say that I was told directly that they did not dyno the car. They didn't try to fudge numbers to me, they didn't try to make some up, they told me straight up that they did not dyno them due to the vehicle they got to do fitment on left almost immediately after they got the last bolt and weld in the system.

I am not doubting that somebody may have tried to 'fudge' number to John H., but I think the reaction is way over done.

John, Kooks makes a good product and I think you have over-reacted on this one big time. Just leave the dyno stuff to the last reply you did on the other thread and walk away for a while. I made it fairly clear in my PM to you that I was considering them and wanted to know where your dyno info was coming from in light of my conversation with them. I don't think it needed to go this far.

Mr. Kook and company. Keep up the good work and I guess I will contact you guys directly should headers be the option I take.

Todd

Todd, I know you're trying to be rational about this, but it's absolutely inexcusable for a company to make a claim like "30RWHP" without any data to back it up. John has been touting Kooks headers for weeks now saying: "Wait until what Kooks has coming" and basically I see Kooks screwed him and told him to make fraudulant....YES FRAUDULANT claims about power!

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10561

I've said it before:

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10764

...and I'll say it again. Bravo to JH.

 

[XCITsNU]

Hey John,

After reading everything, I agree with you. It sounds like Kooks was willing to take an order from you for 10 Headers, then backed out and basically stuck a knife in your back on the way out the door. I think that's a crappy way to do business. I talked with JMatt this evening while we were having fun drag racing at Indianapolis Raceway Park and I'm going to go with the Dynatechs. Perhaps they would be more willing to deal with you professionally than what Kooks has represented. Let us know if you can come up with a more affordable GP than what Kooks offered. Thanks.

 

[stang]

George - you want our company to order 10 sets of headers from Kooks. You want a credit card so you can charge us $13k for your product. You want me to tell people that your product makes "about 30 hp". And now you want to come on this site and try to make me look like an ass? Get some real dyno numbers from a real SRT8 owner on this site - not some other vendor - and impress everybody with your quality product - and you might sell a few sets and not look like a jackass.

But to me, you are a jackass that lost our business by the way you do business. All I ever asked for was to get 1 set of your headers and test them so everyone could see what they produce for power. That is all.

So now go get the dyno numbers you need to validate your product. Just know I wont be buying any from you nor will I recommend them to any of our customers. Not because its not a good product, but because of the way you treated me when I was trying to help you and do business with you.

Now cut the crap and get to the dyno.

John,I think most of us on this forum will back you up brother. After reading the posts by George(Kooks),while his product may be high quality,his unprofessional ways of communicating thru his various posts,are to say,at the least,very disheartening. That surely is no way to do business by using such means.George,If I were you,You really need to apologize to John and prove the statement that your high quality product(headers),will produce with proof,(dyno results) a considerable gain in performance for all of us 300c srt-8 owners.John has become one of us on this forum,and we will back him up 100%,especially if we sense someone attacking his reputation.Peace to all,and to all a goodnite!! :biggrin:

 

[WhiteDiamond]

Todd, I know you're trying to be rational about this, but it's absolutely inexcusable for a company to make a claim like "30RWHP" without any data to back it up. John has been touting Kooks headers for weeks now saying: "Wait until what Kooks has coming" and basically I see Kooks screwed him and told him to make fraudulant....YES FRAUDULANT claims about power!

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10561

I've said it before:

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10764

...and I'll say it again. Bravo to JH.

Well, I will have to make a very STRONG POINT on this. I have NOT SEEN a post from Kooks that they claim the header makes 30hp, or any number for that matter, anywhere on this forum or their website(which doesn't even list the SRT-8 application).

Now, I am not saying that somebody made up those numbers at Kooks and actually told John this, but I AM SAYING that they did not try to make up numbers or fudge them when I called them. We can be rational about this or we can go off the deep end, but a lot of you are jumping on a band-wagon with only second or third hand knowledge.

EDIT: It also needs to be added that in the very links you provide, George Kook comes on and DIRECTLY states that Kooks has not made power claims on this product.

What I want each of you to do is provide me with the direct PERSON that made the 30hp, or whatever number, claim so that we can talk about it. In the threads, the numbers that come about are only in John H's posts and even those appear to be speculative numbers, as he doesn't say he dyno'd them either.

Todd

 

[btlfed1500]

Why internal business is being vented on the boards is rediculous ...

TOO MANY PERSONAL FEELINGS ARE INVOLVED TO MAKE ANY BUSINESS DESCISION RATIONAL ON EITHER PART.

What happened is between the businesses involved. To try and gain support from a consumer base for a business descision or to discredit a company or person openly ... is BAD business IMHO. No one wants to be made out as the bad guy in the eyes of the consumer, but being straight and forthcoming does not have to get ugly ... not as it did here.

Please guys resolve this in private. The information being presented by either party is a bit self-serving and serves no GREATER GOOD for ANYONE here.

Numbers will be posted ... business will continue ... hurt egos will heal.

HOPEFULLY the net result is a quality product offered at a price to make consumers happy and a reasonable profit for the Manufacturer and Distributor.

 

[XCITsNU]

Again, not taking sides here, just stating the obvious.

There are 3 issues on the table:
1. John appears to have had a pending order with Kooks and Kooks backed out when John wanted to purchase one set and do dyno testing. Why?

2. George goes out his way to emphasize Kooks relationship with GSM. I am fine with that mentality; if they want to play a favorite that’s up to them, but to do so in a way that makes the other Vendor look bad is wrong. Again Why?

3. John states he has a Group Buy soon to be available for Kooks Headers pending some confirmed dyno information and has stated he is told to just say "it makes 30 HP", which he takes issue with because he knows we will demand he put his own money where his mouth is and show us some proof. Then he gets shot down by Kooks publicly. Did John make up the numbers? I find that hard to believe when his entire mission in this case is to convey the truth about the actual power gains, but regardless, I don't think it was tactfully handled by Kooks.

I think most of us take more issue with numbers 1 & 2 than with the actual number related to the power gained.

Let's look at the bigger picture. Exhaust gains are cumulative. If Headers and high flow CATs are put on a stock SRT-8 with a Stock CAT back setup, the gains will be different than with a good after market CAT back system. If you take the same car and change the valves, port and polish the Heads, and Polish the Intake, without changing anything from stock you will get X "HP" gains. If you combine all of these, the cumulative gains will be higher than what you would get from just the one over the other. The more you add the more power you will get from the combination of Mods you do (as long as you can make informed decisions). Add in a Super Charger, NOS, etc. and HP gains start to add up fast. My point is that to understand how Headers and High Flow CATs will affect the daily driver who may not be ready for a Super Charger or a Stroked Engine setup is really where the typical Group Buyer is going to be. I think Johns attempt to provide that information was an honest and sincere effort. I think Kooks response from this point forward needs to be upfront and professional. I don't think people are jumping on a bandwagon. I could easily buy Kooks Headers over Dynatech if the quality of product and gains are comparable, but ones price is cheaper over the other. I won't play favorites, but I do plan on making educated buying decisions for anything that is more than a few hundred dollars.

 

[btlfed1500]

To be very honest the answers to questions 1&2 are NONE of anyones business other than John and George.

Again I am quite appalled at the fact these types of personal business decisions are even talked about openly. You will never have all the facts or know all the reasons why such descisions are made...to even speak of them makes for undue scrutiny. (Sorry but when you are dealing with two privately owned businesses you will never get all the facts ... never, there is too much at stake and too much to loose.)

Why businesses descide to continue to do business with some customers, why they exclude others, why they sell direct, why some don't, why they seek new customers? ... these are all questions NO consumer is equiped to evaluate or judge ... you either can buy the product or not. The choices a consumer makes in its purchasing will dictate a response from the source and to be honest if it is not the right response business is lost. But to analyze ALL THIS from a consumer's point of view? How can you understand supplier sourcing, cost structure, profitability, strategic business alliances, distrbution channels ... HOW? I'm not saying its impossible but why should any of this effect the finished products proven capability (I will address this shortly) IF all this does not effect quality or value. I can tell you not all the reasons for the transgressions of these threads have been found or aired ... and from what I know they will never be.

To any avail proven capabilities of the product are still what is debated. Duely so BUT reactions that have come about seem entirely too inflamed. I have probably more information regarding the performance of these products than ANYONE metion here. I have driven jektrons car equiped with the parts seen/felt the performance first hand. I have also done a substatial amount of exhaust work (for those that know where i work) and moreover exhaust work on the SRT8 in particular. Would I feel a claim without a dyno is invalid? No, not necessarily. A dyno is only ONE of MANY ways to determine performance increases and still a dyno incorrectly used becomes more a liability than a tool. I can tell you in my expereince I can feel 5 rwhp changes and can verify them on one of my two in ground dynos or more over see how the ecm responds without ever seeing HP numbers...but Im getting off topic. HP numbers will arrive shortly from what source, I don't know ... but you the consumer has spoken and expressed your need ... now consider should your need(S) be met are you going to become a buyer or find yet another reason to reamain a talker / naysayer. Here is the opportunity to express those needs just don't be speaking as a prospective buyer without true INTENT to buy...fueling a fire to which you have no benefit from only will lead to you getting burned (this is a general statement not directed at any person responding in particular.)

Richard

 

[300CUL8R]

White Diamond,
I think you might be a little biased. I believe I remember you RIPPING Hennessey when he first appeared on the board with his wheel business and then when he started marketing the performance mods.

http://www.300cforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8698

So far it looks like John and his team have earned a second chance and he's had great feedback so far. No need to keep drinking the Haterade.

 

[[email protected]]

Let's end the bickering

To all forum members, venders and mediators. We are not in anyway trying to discredit Hennessey motorsports or anybody else these threads have made upset. We here at Kooks Custom Headers have certain guide lines that we put in place to protect all of our dealer's inside of our network. These were not followed. I hope you all understand that this was not a attack it was just a simple way to avoid further issue's.

As far as the alegations of fulse performance numbers we have not released anything yet because we have no info to share. We have been a leading header manaufactor for 40+ years because we manufactor and sell proven proformance products not hearsay. We do have a few of the people that are testing the product say that they feel a seat of your pants difference then the stock but again there are no numbers yet to say just how much power they gained. As soon as we get the info I will post it so everyone can see for them selves.

And again we are sorry that these thread's where taken completly out of contest. I hope this will clear the air betwen evryone. And john if you want to discuss this in private give me a call.

Thanks Again
George R.