[Zvyrtec]

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone of you guys knows how Chrysler tuned up the Pentastar for the 300S version. AFAIK it runs to 60 mph in 6.3 sec and is rated at 300 HP. The EU version with the regular Pentastar is rated at 7.7 sec and 286 HP. The discrepancy is colossal. I wonder what the S version packs in terms of tuning - did they tweak the ECU and the AT plus a better exhaust, or is there something more to it?

 

[mackguy]

Does the EU version you're talking about have the 8 speed auto or the old 5 speed? In the US the base tune is 292HP vs. 300, so it seems there's a bit of a discrepancy there as well (though that could have to due with different measuring for the EU vs. an actual difference?)

According to this article (which is the only review of a non-S V6 I have found), the 0-60 is 6.6s. I could buy an extra 8hp and different transmission tuning could bring 6.6 to 6.3 (even weather, track condition etc could get you there).
2013 Chrysler 300C V6 car review / road test

According to this the 300S did 6.6 also
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-chrysler-300s-v6-8-speed-automatic-road-test-review

If the EU 300 is really at 7.7 there is some difference greater than two V6 options in the US. That sounds more in line with the first gen V6.

 

[pdyebrasil]

I'm sure that the 7.7 sec 0-60 time is with the old 5-speed. The 8-speed tranny knocked a whole second off of the 0-60 time. The 300S has a true dual exhaust system (w/ crossover), whereas the non-S version splits from a single pipe to dual underneath the car. I'm not sure if there were any modifications on the intake side or not.

 

[jtheruler79]

I believe the additional 8hp in the 300S in the factory CAI and exhaust. Sport Mode in the 300S is just more aggressive shift points.

 

[Zvyrtec]

The EU rebrand, which is called Lancia Thema Executive (and in general it's the 300S with the 300C Luxury trim - wood, leather finish accents, etc.) comes with the V6 Pentastar and a VM Motori 6-pot V diesel.
The gas-guzzler has the 8-speed ZF AT, and only the coal burner comes with the 5-speed NAG 1 tranny (the same used on the V8 version). The specs specifically say that the Pentastar with the 8-speed AT goes 7.7 to 60 mph. I really don't know why, perhaps it's because of the lower HP output (286 compared to 292 HP); a stealership rep said they have taken the Pentastar on a ring road down here and the acceleration was about 7.

If it is only the crossover and better CAI, I'm happy. I wouldn't like to buy a Diablosport tuner only to find out that it does not "talk" with the rebrand ECU - which supposedly should be the same as in the US versions... but who knows? The EU version, for example, has different wiring, e.g. the tail lights are controlled by a 2-line CAN (orange blinkers, red stop/road lights), instead of 1 CAN line on the US version.

 

[mackguy]

It's hard to say. Also I'm not sure about the 286 vs 292HP discrepancy. If that's a real HP difference, or just that the EU has a different measurement system. Here the base V6 is 292, and the S is 300. From the pictures the Thema looks exactly as a 300C with the Luxury package, not a 300S. 300S does not have chrome trim, and has different seats etc.

It is almost incomprehensible that the there would be a 1sec 0-60 difference with the same engine and transmission. 6HP is not enough to get you that difference. If you look at the 5 speed V6 vs the V8, the V8 is only about 2sec quicker to 60 and it has almost an extra 100HP. A difference of 6HP on a 4,000lb car is not something most people would notice in normal driving. I've actually wondered why they even bother with the 8HP bump on the 300S v6 (though it gives them the magic "300" Hp for marketing)

If you say a dealer got 7s, then that is more consistent with the US numbers than a 7.7s. You have to understand in the car magazines where they come up with those numbers, they are driven much harder than any dealer would drive a promo car, and take several runs etc. Car&Driver managed 5.4s with a 300C V8, but I'm certain I don't drive around getting that number.. that probably involved brake standing, and lots of experimentation to determine the fastest launch procedure. So if a magazine does all that work and comes up with a 6.6 time, it's entirely believable that someone else might get 7s out of the same car.

 

[Zvyrtec]

Thanks, that shone some light on the issue.
Anyway, once I get it, I'll get the crossflow pipes (the Thema has the regular exhaust) and a CAI. Still, 7-ish secs to 60 mph is way better than the modern regular acceleration (and a pretty good filter for fake M-power beemers or fake S-type audis - believe or not, there are more wannabie "M5" stickered beemers in Poland that the Bavarian concern has ever made, LOL!).

As for the HP measurement - there is no difference. HP is HP and that's it, an Imperial system. The horribly regulation-maniacal EU turned from HP ratings to kilowatts (you know, all metric for the sake of standardisation), but that's not easy to get confused with (the kW rating is approx. 1/3 lower in figures than the HP rating).

 

[mackguy]

Thanks, that shone some light on the issue.
Anyway, once I get it, I'll get the crossflow pipes (the Thema has the regular exhaust) and a CAI. Still, 7-ish secs to 60 mph is way better than the modern regular acceleration (and a pretty good filter for fake M-power beemers or fake S-type audis - believe or not, there are more wannabie "M5" stickered beemers in Poland that the Bavarian concern has ever made, LOL!).

As for the HP measurement - there is no difference. HP is HP and that's it, an Imperial system. The horribly regulation-maniacal EU turned from HP ratings to kilowatts (you know, all metric for the sake of standardisation), but that's not easy to get confused with (the kW rating is approx. 1/3 lower in figures than the HP rating).

Well you're right in the fact that the unit HP is standard, however the method for measuring HP is not...
From what I can find EU follows EEC 80/1269, while the US follows SAE J1349. Even the test method itself changes from time to time. A huge difference was in the 70's when the US went from "gross" to "net" HP. More recently there have been minor changes.. around 2006 the Toyota 3.0V6 lost 20HP in the rating even though the engine didn't change.. the test method did. Similarly the Cadillac Northstar went from 300HP to 292 around 2006. That's why I say these small differences of <10HP are really hard to quantify in meaningful terms especially when dealing with EU vs USA. Apparently the variation allowed for SAE certified power in the us is 1%, which means the 300HP engine in the 300S could really be 297, and the 292HP could really be 295, for a real world difference of a whopping 2HP...

So basically, I doubt that 286 vs 292 is a real HP difference.

 

[leadfoot99]

In Europe there is big difference in fuel octane levels I've noticed this since moving to Canada! When I was filling up in the UK our lowest octane level was 95 and highest is 99 (Shell), They might have done a ecu remap to keep up with the mercs and bms. But as you guys have been discussing the extra 8bhp could well be in the CAI and Dual exhaust this gain seems realistic!

 

[753951]

That number difference is actually almost non existent in real life. Europe is showing so-called RON numbers, and Canada and US, AKI (or (A+M)/2, or PON, if that was already not confusing enough) numbers. EU 95 fuel is North America 91. Six of one and half dozen of the other.

 

[Zvyrtec]

mackguy: Yeah. I recalled the HP calculation issue after I'd posted my reply. Thanks again! Still weird that second-hand testing by stealerships shows 7. something to 60 mph.

leadfoot: 753951 is totally right. Moreover, I've read the User's Manual for the 2 gen. 300 and the Pentastar should run on 91 (E95 here).

 

[whitefang]

The 300S has a true dual exhaust system (w/ crossover), whereas the non-S version splits from a single pipe to dual underneath the car. I'm not sure if there were any modifications on the intake side or not.

I guess it all depends on what year your "S" is. My '12 is 1 to 2 and the '13's came true dual. a little bitter the 13's came true dual i guess i should have been doing some research and waited. at: