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if I drive from donnybrook to perth, 300km, when I turn 2007 SRT8 6.1 off It won'tturn over enough to start. someone has put after market starter in it so this would be the first place I would think to start, back to original?
starter motor over heat
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Welcome to the forum,
You've not provided much info, but a few thoughts/questions come to mind...
Does it start if you let it cool down?
Does it start when making local runs?
Why would it be getting hot on a long run?
Did they replace the relay when they did the starter?
How old is the battery, and is the system charging properly?
Third party starters are common and new, they can be fine. Re-man's can be hit-n-miss. At least this has been my experience thru the years.
You've not provided much info, but a few thoughts/questions come to mind...
Does it start if you let it cool down?
Does it start when making local runs?
Why would it be getting hot on a long run?
Did they replace the relay when they did the starter?
How old is the battery, and is the system charging properly?
Third party starters are common and new, they can be fine. Re-man's can be hit-n-miss. At least this has been my experience thru the years.
Joined
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5 Posts
Thank you for your time, I appreciate it, cheers. I’m about to fly back to work for a week. I will reply when back.
After last time, I am leaving this alone mate.
Hello mate;
Firtsly, concur with Grumpy's comments. One more, have you tried starting it in neutral when it is hard to start? Unlikely that heat would affect, but could be coincidence. EVERYONE uses the "pk" contact to start, the Neutral one sits there like new never being used, so if it IS that worth a try/nothing to lose/as a back up........................
Like you, I am here (WA) and there is a recent thread that talks about hot starter problems. Have a read of that if it is still up.
I floated some ideas (in that thread) to try (before replacing starter) but in trying to cover all, copped a bit of flack, as "not what others where saying/too involved." Well, elec theory that could help won't be what non elecs were saying, and wanted to cover all possibilities................but - more neg comments than pos, so I won't repeat it here.
Starters make the system work hard, and every connector has to be perfect, otherwise drama. That is suck eggs, but quoting the theory that backs it isn't taken kindly, as it is long winded.
Read the other thread, or (only if you want to) send me a PM on here (I don't know how, but others on here have messaged me here, so......). Up to you.
I have the manual/wiring diags (mine is a 2007, but V6, but manual covers all) so (if you don't have them) I can attach the diags you need if you want them.
Cheers;
Ken H
Joined
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5 Posts
good morning to all. now, its like the old school cars remember, you would drive somewhere turn car off then you would have to wait 10 or so mins to start. it would struggle to turn over. if i drive to mylup, about 40mins,m stop get fuel the car will start but only just, very slow turn over. i drive to perth from there, hour and half turn car off it won't turn over at all but in 20/30 mins its fine, starts as per normal. now I'm a spray painter/panelbeater so i have to gather as much info on mechanical challengers. 35degrees, 6.1 hemi, heat from road would make for a reasonable hot starter motor stuck in back corner of motor. i work in mining so i pick fitters brains at times. one said, heat causes resistance so that fits. but i ask myself why is there an after market starter motor in there. unless the original starters are absolutely shit i would be putting original back in first. someone else mentioned battery cables not big enough,. I'm going to have a look at lower front bumper, maybe i can cut some neat air flow vents that flow to starter motor area. but first, shall i put original starter back in? tomorrow I'm going to bunbury to get exhaust leak fixed so i will call into auto elec. and get all that can be tested there is also a chrysler dealer there so i will pop in and see what he thinks. thank you for your time in helping me along with this, i will post again before i return back to work, this Wednesday, cheers kiwicustom.
Hello mate;
Well, I said (on another elec thread) heat causes resistance/could change resistance of a not perfect connection, and got challenged with "never heard that before" and more vehement replies. So I hesitate to provide theory, because people seem to not want to hear it. But if you measure the resistance of a tungsten headlight/halogen headlight globe, the resistance cold says it will draw 3 to 4 times the current it does. Then run it. The current drops to what that wattage should draw, because the resistance of a hot headlight globe is 3 to 4 times what it is when cold. That's a fact.
I wouldn't look at ducting or anything. Driving would cool the starter, but "hot soak" from stopping would heat it like before, so no difference.
I know we keep harping on this, but have you checked the battery????
I know people say "only when hot." A very hot engine is harder to crank than a cold one. O hot one should fire more easily than a cold one, but a hot one hard to crank. My Stag has had a couple of starters, not because they were dud, but I had spares/had it for 30 years and over 300,000 kms, so I rebuild/rotate. System and battery perfect. It always cranks over easily, and often when sat for 6 months (when deployed) it would crank for ages before starting. Never a problem. But if sat in traffic on a 40 deg day, then stop. Start straight away - get that "Urrrr - Rurrrrr" slow start.
Why? It is too high comp. (EVERYONE over skims them.) So cold it cranks fine. But when very hot, it sucks in cold air, and extreme heat of combustion chamber means immediately heated/hot air in chamber = harder to compress than when cold.
There is nothing wrong with my Stag starting system, but when hot/been sitting, heat soak makes it crank slow sometimes.
So I get back to fully charged battery/check all connections/do load test. At least eliminate that BEFORE anything drastic.
You might need a new starter. But if battery not fully charged (you said car use is cyclic/intermittent) could be a waste?????
I feel here I should dispel some myths people seem to have about fully charged batteries. At the risk of suck eggs/scroll past if not of interest.
This is more for all the battery threads that "drove for an hour/can't be the battery" that most say.
I constantly get the "I went for a long drive, so it CAN'T be the battery." False. Also "I have a hundred amp alternator, so that will punch 100 amps into battery for half hour, that will do." Again, false.
Contrary to pop belief, alternators are NOT optimised to charge the battery. They are optimised for between 13.5 and 14 volts for reasonably steady supply of car systems. A battery charger optimised would charge at a steady current,, then voltage. The voltage varies too much for car systems. The old days when professionals charged batteries, you monitored voltage/current/heat/SG/acid level. A battery was charged when it "had an SG of xxx at a temp of xxx all cells gassing" (essentially, boiling, but from charge, not from heat.) That is how we charged everything from car, boat.............. even submarine batteries that weighed half a ton each, and 448 of them in 2 banks. Same theory, 2.2 volts per cell. Worth MILLIONS, and the submarine worth billions, and useless without them, so we HAD to know the theory, and how to charge them PROPERLY/as fast as possible without damage.
They don't say that anymore, because batteries are sealed, and people would buckle plates. Have a look at any 60's car manual. That is what it will say. But now with sealed batteries and people being less technical, they default to "never over 10% of A/H. So max of 8 amps for our 80 A/H example.
So, an 80 amp hour car battery can supply multiples of "80 amp hour". 80 amps is a bad example, it will supply that for about 30 to 40 minutes (not efficient). More realistic is (example) 1 amp for 80 hours, or 4 amps for 20 hours.
So, ign/light left on = battery completely flat. That means (basically) that you have to put back 1 amp for EIGHTY hours, or 4 amps for 20 hours.
Now, I have about ten battery chargers. Some smart, range from 1 to 8 amps. I have a basic (not smart) cheap one = 4 amps. That is to revive batteries that smart chargers "won't see" (dead brick). I also have the oldest/crappiest looking one which is 50 years old, but puts out 50 amps.
So, people then say "went for a long drive = 130 amps!!!!!!" It DOESN'T work like that. Flat battery voltage is approx 11 volts. (Flat, no load, not "stuffed"). Car voltage is 14. So 3 volts differential across internal resistance of the battery. And that 11 volts is increasing from the SECOND alt starts charge. So LESS than 3 volts diff. Current is a function of voltage diff across a resistance. You CANNOT increase current without changing voltage or resistance.
Charging is exponential. If you alternator charged at more than 20 or 30 amps for that "long half hour drive" it would damage battery. Internal resistance and small voltage diff regulates that, NOT voltage reg, that sits at 14 volts.
Think of this. You have a bathtub at the same level of the Pacific ocean. You create a small channel 1/8 of an inch high at the lip of the ocean/bathtub, and the gazillion gallons of the ocean trickles in. That 1/8 inch height is same as small voltage difference. The ocean has FAR MORE capacity than you need, but slow flow rate set by height/flow path/pressure diff. The same reason a tap on a tank runs fast at first (high pressure diff) but when almost empty, trickles out forever, as internal level almost same as outlet. Same as alt voltage almost same as batt voltage. Exponential pressure diff. Voltage is elec pressure. High diff - hi flow. Current (amps) is flow.
So, people hate theory, (and just won't believe it) so here is a trial. My Stag, totally flat battery (boot light stuck on). Wanted to take it out, and where I arrived, could take charger/be there all day/charge when I got there. So I jumped it. Stag has a 60 amp alt. And a 60 amp ammeter (I liked to know what was going on when driving interstate 30 years ago....................
I started car (jumper leads) - car charged at 60 amps........... after 30 seconds, dropped to 30 amps. After a minute, down to 15. Two more minutes, 10 amps. After only FIVE MINUTES - down to 5 amps. It STAYED at 5 amps for the entire 40 minute trip to where I was going. Then small 4 amp charger on while at friends house. The Stag alt is a Bosch 60 amp (my mod) that is in perfect cond/can run at 60 amps all day........... it has to to run 7 amp elec water pump/20 amp elec fan/ 24 amps halogen headlights - and has done constantly (interstate trips). So it CAN provide the 60, but battery won't take it.
So, point is, that is an exponential charge rate.
If your battery is completely flattened, it will need 80 A/H of charge. At 4 amps, that is 20 hours. Your 130 amp alt will supply max for les than a minute. After ten minutes, it will be 8 amps or less, then after half hour will be down to 5.
80 divided by 5 - 16 hours. Is that the "long drive" people are talking about?
I have long experience with deployments (used to do SEA and Gulf deployments/warships, 20 years at sea.) CONSTANTLY get people come back/flat battery, jump start = " I went for a long drive" (half hour); battery must be stuffed. Most threw out batteries that were ok, they just refused to charge them, because "theory from electrician?? Never heard that before."
Yeah, I know, it's boring. But if one person leaves their battery on a smart charger for DAYS and saves it/saves the money on batteries/chargers/connections, maybe the flak I am about to get is worth it.
A smart charger and a load tester are under a hundred dollars. It will be the best money you ever spend - and it MAKES SURE battery is up to it.
That it, I won't spruke this crap again. Thanks for your patience.
This is more for all the battery threads that "drove for an hour/can't be the battery" that most say.
I constantly get the "I went for a long drive, so it CAN'T be the battery." False. Also "I have a hundred amp alternator, so that will punch 100 amps into battery for half hour, that will do." Again, false.
Contrary to pop belief, alternators are NOT optimised to charge the battery. They are optimised for between 13.5 and 14 volts for reasonably steady supply of car systems. A battery charger optimised would charge at a steady current,, then voltage. The voltage varies too much for car systems. The old days when professionals charged batteries, you monitored voltage/current/heat/SG/acid level. A battery was charged when it "had an SG of xxx at a temp of xxx all cells gassing" (essentially, boiling, but from charge, not from heat.) That is how we charged everything from car, boat.............. even submarine batteries that weighed half a ton each, and 448 of them in 2 banks. Same theory, 2.2 volts per cell. Worth MILLIONS, and the submarine worth billions, and useless without them, so we HAD to know the theory, and how to charge them PROPERLY/as fast as possible without damage.
They don't say that anymore, because batteries are sealed, and people would buckle plates. Have a look at any 60's car manual. That is what it will say. But now with sealed batteries and people being less technical, they default to "never over 10% of A/H. So max of 8 amps for our 80 A/H example.
So, an 80 amp hour car battery can supply multiples of "80 amp hour". 80 amps is a bad example, it will supply that for about 30 to 40 minutes (not efficient). More realistic is (example) 1 amp for 80 hours, or 4 amps for 20 hours.
So, ign/light left on = battery completely flat. That means (basically) that you have to put back 1 amp for EIGHTY hours, or 4 amps for 20 hours.
Now, I have about ten battery chargers. Some smart, range from 1 to 8 amps. I have a basic (not smart) cheap one = 4 amps. That is to revive batteries that smart chargers "won't see" (dead brick). I also have the oldest/crappiest looking one which is 50 years old, but puts out 50 amps.
So, people then say "went for a long drive = 130 amps!!!!!!" It DOESN'T work like that. Flat battery voltage is approx 11 volts. (Flat, no load, not "stuffed"). Car voltage is 14. So 3 volts differential across internal resistance of the battery. And that 11 volts is increasing from the SECOND alt starts charge. So LESS than 3 volts diff. Current is a function of voltage diff across a resistance. You CANNOT increase current without changing voltage or resistance.
Charging is exponential. If you alternator charged at more than 20 or 30 amps for that "long half hour drive" it would damage battery. Internal resistance and small voltage diff regulates that, NOT voltage reg, that sits at 14 volts.
Think of this. You have a bathtub at the same level of the Pacific ocean. You create a small channel 1/8 of an inch high at the lip of the ocean/bathtub, and the gazillion gallons of the ocean trickles in. That 1/8 inch height is same as small voltage difference. The ocean has FAR MORE capacity than you need, but slow flow rate set by height/flow path/pressure diff. The same reason a tap on a tank runs fast at first (high pressure diff) but when almost empty, trickles out forever, as internal level almost same as outlet. Same as alt voltage almost same as batt voltage. Exponential pressure diff. Voltage is elec pressure. High diff - hi flow. Current (amps) is flow.
So, people hate theory, (and just won't believe it) so here is a trial. My Stag, totally flat battery (boot light stuck on). Wanted to take it out, and where I arrived, could take charger/be there all day/charge when I got there. So I jumped it. Stag has a 60 amp alt. And a 60 amp ammeter (I liked to know what was going on when driving interstate 30 years ago....................
I started car (jumper leads) - car charged at 60 amps........... after 30 seconds, dropped to 30 amps. After a minute, down to 15. Two more minutes, 10 amps. After only FIVE MINUTES - down to 5 amps. It STAYED at 5 amps for the entire 40 minute trip to where I was going. Then small 4 amp charger on while at friends house. The Stag alt is a Bosch 60 amp (my mod) that is in perfect cond/can run at 60 amps all day........... it has to to run 7 amp elec water pump/20 amp elec fan/ 24 amps halogen headlights - and has done constantly (interstate trips). So it CAN provide the 60, but battery won't take it.
So, point is, that is an exponential charge rate.
If your battery is completely flattened, it will need 80 A/H of charge. At 4 amps, that is 20 hours. Your 130 amp alt will supply max for les than a minute. After ten minutes, it will be 8 amps or less, then after half hour will be down to 5.
80 divided by 5 - 16 hours. Is that the "long drive" people are talking about?
I have long experience with deployments (used to do SEA and Gulf deployments/warships, 20 years at sea.) CONSTANTLY get people come back/flat battery, jump start = " I went for a long drive" (half hour); battery must be stuffed. Most threw out batteries that were ok, they just refused to charge them, because "theory from electrician?? Never heard that before."
Yeah, I know, it's boring. But if one person leaves their battery on a smart charger for DAYS and saves it/saves the money on batteries/chargers/connections, maybe the flak I am about to get is worth it.
A smart charger and a load tester are under a hundred dollars. It will be the best money you ever spend - and it MAKES SURE battery is up to it.
That it, I won't spruke this crap again. Thanks for your patience.
Joined
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5 Posts
I am listening, i will be buying a smart charger and load tester and will get the system tested, thanks grumpy.
Wasn't Grumpy, was me.
Cheers mate. Honestly, not trying to hassle you, is just that having "been away/long time between starts" all my working life, you see it a lot, and now car alarms/security slowly drag the life out of the battery, so they work even harder.
Smart chargers don't put out much, but they can modulate/switch to float/trickle, so you can leave on forever, and they can't overcharge. I have 3 cars and 4 bikes, and the ones I hardly use are on the cheaper smart chargers. Not just so ready to go, but to keep batteries in shape.
There are expensive load testers, (carbon pile best) but usually too expensive to have laying around. I bought the 100 amp one that is everywhere on Ebay They are only about $20 AUD ($15 USD) in the US (this forum mostly US) but about $30 AUD here. They only draw 100 amps to test, but that is enough of a proportion to show if battery is either down on charge or unable to provide correct CCA due to defect.
I have had 3 mates in the East buy them at Bunnings, but Bunnings here (WA) don't stock them. Here in WA Bunnings have some thing where they don't sell things that encroach on car shops. They draw the line at automotive cable and crimp terminals, as they can be used for general (non car) wiring. But they won't sell anything else car related. If you check the site, they show as an item, but nil stock in all WA stores.
6V/12V 100AMP Car Battery Load Tester Analyser Vehicle Diagnostic Tool AU Stock | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 6V/12V 100AMP Car Battery Load Tester Analyser Vehicle Diagnostic Tool AU Stock at the best online prices at eBay!
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That link is $28, handiest thing you will ever buy. There are lots on ebay, all similar price, but that one is 28 inc post, and you'll have it delivered in a week. They are a simple item, but do the job.
In the end, could still be a starter problem. But need to confirm battery 100% first; and that is easier than the starter change anyway.
Good luck with it mate.
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5 Posts
oz ken, oz ken, sorry about that and thank you again. back to work for me, cheers
No worries mate;
I'm retired (old bloke), so buzz here when you are back and let us know how you go/progress.
One of my sons works in mining/FIFO, so I am used to the "wait until the next off shift".
Cheers mate.
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