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Hello to the forum from a newbie. This is my first posting related to my 300C. I took delivery of a 2005 Crystal Black 300C six days ago with 4600 miles on the odometer. It was the dealership owner's personal demo vehicle. It has EVERYTHING! except a 'sunroof open warning alarm' (like 'headlights on' or 'key in ignition' alarms), or automatic sunroof closing when the ignition is turned off and the door is opened(like the steering column retraction/driver's seat pullback to ease exit). This is the first car I ever owned with a sunroof (except for the ultimate sunroof: a convertible). I'm not lazy or irresponsible, but one simple mistake could really mess things up in the interior if it rained, or worse.
Does anyone know if the EVIC can control the sunroof (besides the published time to operate the sunroof before opening the door) to close automatically, or if Chrysler has some kind of accessory the dealer can add (I guess I'll call the dealer tomorrow on that issue!), or if the after-market has something? I know such a feature is available on other top-of-the-line vehicles, even automatic side window closure is available. Failing all of the above I just may have to invent my own. An alarm would be relatively easy, an automated closing would take a bit more thought and installation effort!
 
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DESIREE said:
Hello to the forum from a newbie. This is my first posting related to my 300C. I took delivery of a 2005 Crystal Black 300C six days ago with 4600 miles on the odometer. It was the dealership owner's personal demo vehicle. It has EVERYTHING! except a 'sunroof open warning alarm' (like 'headlights on' or 'key in ignition' alarms), or automatic sunroof closing when the ignition is turned off and the door is opened(like the steering column retraction/driver's seat pullback to ease exit). This is the first car I ever owned with a sunroof (except for the ultimate sunroof: a convertible). I'm not lazy or irresponsible, but one simple mistake could really mess things up in the interior if it rained, or worse.
Does anyone know if the EVIC can control the sunroof (besides the published time to operate the sunroof before opening the door) to close automatically, or if Chrysler has some kind of accessory the dealer can add (I guess I'll call the dealer tomorrow on that issue!), or if the after-market has something? I know such a feature is available on other top-of-the-line vehicles, even automatic side window closure is available. Failing all of the above I just may have to invent my own. An alarm would be relatively easy, an automated closing would take a bit more thought and installation effort!
I'm not sure I have ever read anything about your question on this site, but you have a point and if you could come up with a mod or a place where this could be done at a reasonable price , I bet quite a few of us would jump on the wagon, I know I would.
 

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DESIREE said:
Hello to the forum from a newbie. This is my first posting related to my 300C. I took delivery of a 2005 Crystal Black 300C six days ago with 4600 miles on the odometer. It was the dealership owner's personal demo vehicle. It has EVERYTHING! except a 'sunroof open warning alarm' (like 'headlights on' or 'key in ignition' alarms), or automatic sunroof closing when the ignition is turned off and the door is opened(like the steering column retraction/driver's seat pullback to ease exit). This is the first car I ever owned with a sunroof (except for the ultimate sunroof: a convertible). I'm not lazy or irresponsible, but one simple mistake could really mess things up in the interior if it rained, or worse.
Does anyone know if the EVIC can control the sunroof (besides the published time to operate the sunroof before opening the door) to close automatically, or if Chrysler has some kind of accessory the dealer can add (I guess I'll call the dealer tomorrow on that issue!), or if the after-market has something? I know such a feature is available on other top-of-the-line vehicles, even automatic side window closure is available. Failing all of the above I just may have to invent my own. An alarm would be relatively easy, an automated closing would take a bit more thought and installation effort!
By the way welcome to the forum, all you wanted to know and were afraid to ask is somewhere on the site and if you can't find it just ask!!!! :D
 

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Welcome, be careful with aftermkt auto roof closing, it needs a safety reverse to prevent hands fingers and necks from being crushed. An alarm should be straight forward, my 1990 LS 400 had this factory feature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Mikeyjohn said:
I'm not sure I have ever read anything about your question on this site, but you have a point and if you could come up with a mod or a place where this could be done at a reasonable price , I bet quite a few of us would jump on the wagon, I know I would.
Thanx for the comebacks so far.
If I have to go off on an invention tantrum I may need some basic information about the electrical distribution in the 300C. Does anybody out there have schematics/wiring diagrams of the ignition switch and sunroof circuitry? Having to figure out all of the circuitry by functionality and tearing into the dashboard for access could be very messy. Diagrams with wire colors would be wonderful!
My thoughts so far are leaning toward tacking an auxiliary control circuit on to the close side of the sunroof switch. I don't think (at this point) that my auxiliary control would defeat the emergency open feature already available as I don't plan to bypass anything, just provide an alternate source of power to the exact same point in the existing circuitry where the close button applies power, or ground as it may be. From my experience with other vehicles, the 'headlights on' and 'key-in-ignition' warnings are initiated by the ignition being switched off and the key remaining in the ignition lock. The key in the lock closes a ground switch that is common to the warning circuits for 'key-in-ignition' or 'headlights on' that are triggered when the driver's door is opened. My initial approach would be to install a proximity switch to sense that the sunroof was open which, in conjunction with the driver's door opening, would either sound the exiting alarm or energize the sunroof's close circuit to shut it automatically.
After posting my initial message here last night I fired off an e-mail to the "internet sales" person at the dealership who did my sale. One of her final comments as I departed with the car was to contact her if there was something I couldn't figure out because there were alot of people around the dealership who could provide answers. So be it!
 

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Hmm... well, I happen to be the electrical engineer who designed the sunroof control module for the LX cars, so perhaps I can be of some assistance..(well, I designed all of the electronics, and helped with the software..)

Some basic info: The sunroof module is provided by Inalfa roof systems. The motor & electronics is from Valeo Automotive(where I worked, until the LX program was done, so they laid me off..). The sunroof electronics are located on the motor, which is located at the rear of the sunroof module, near the dome light. It communicates on the interior CAN bus(chrysler terminology is CAN B, which is a fault-tolerant, 83.3kbps dual wire bus....).

This is an anti-pinch sunroof. There is a multi-pole ring magnet on the shaft of the motor. As the motor spins, hall sensors detect the magnet and the microcontroller uses this do determine the position, speed, and acceration of the sunroof glass. No proximity switches, force gauges, or current shunts are used in the system. All switch inputs are fed back to the microcontroller. Based on the inputs, the micro will determine whether to operate in manual or automatic mode, or ignore the switch completely.

On the LX vehicles, there is no ignition wire that goes to the sunroof module. There is a battery line supplied, which is always hot. The module is turned on and off via the CAN bus. Any CAN message will wake it up. Once the ignition is turned off, there is a delayed ignition message that is broadcast, usually 30-45 seconds later, which powers down the accessories which are powered from battery.

An auto close feature wasn't put on there, because many people prefer to leave their sunroof open when the car is parked(I leave mine in in the vent position on my SRT-4 all the time in the summer), to prevent heat buildup. The vehicle itself COULD have done this, if they had desired it. Chrysler also did not want activation from the keyfob for reasons pertaining to the force level requirements in FMVSS 118V5 (force level requirements are different depedning on how far away the activator is from the car, believe it or not..)

The switch inputs are active-high(that is, when a high level is put on the switch, its 'on'). The switch itself has 4 wires coming out of it: Switch-Power, Vent, Close, and Ground. The power line is always hot. It comes from the sunroof controller(connected to battery via a 680 ohm resistor). Pushing a button will close one switch contact to this power line. Each of the 3 switch lines returns to the module, internally connected to ground via another 680 ohm resistor).


Your task is pretty difficult. (Well, not so bad for someone who's an electrical engineer with access to the right parts and the right contacts...).


Probably the easiest thing you could do, would be to rig a proximity switch and connect that to give you an alarm of some sort. You'd have to get the switch to be closed only in the 'Close' position, but not in the 'Vent' or 'Open positions, though...

This would not defeat the anti-pinch functionality, but it could cause some false 'events'. The system is very precise and can detect all kinds of force deviations. So any proximity switch needs to not cause enough force to look like its closing on something like a small childs finger, which is pretty small and soft.

If you wanted it to actually close when you shut off the ignition, well, you'd need to build a little circuit that would provide a signal to the close switch immediately after the ignition turns off(basically what you mentioned).

But, the trick is your circuit. You'd ideally want something that generates just a short pulse, I forget the exact timing, but If I remember right, its something like 500milliseconds. You'd need to check the timing with a scope. A pulse longer than that will go into manual mode. If you went into manual mode, it would still close, but now you are constantly feeding power into the control. Over time, this could drain the battery.

You wouldn't want to connect just a 12v source to the switch input, since this would provide more current than the resistor is rated for under certain circumstances. You'd want to have your circuit switch the 'Switch-Power' line to the 'Close' line. Current flow would be on the order of 10-15mA. So a small switching transistor circuit could be built.

This wouldn't cause trouble with the anti-pinch programming, since its actually operating the switch as intended. But, as you can see, its a bit of work.

I don't have a schematic anymore, but I *do* have a prodcution LX electronics board in my hand at the moment, so I'll look at the pinout..


Pin 1 is not connected
Pin 2 is a switch input
Pin 3 is a switch input
Pin 4 is CAN B-
Pin 5 is CAN B+
Pin 6 is ground
Pin 7 is a switch input
Pin 8 is Battery
Pin 9 is not used(its the ignition pin when used for 05 rams..)
Pin 10 is Switch Power

I can't remember which switch input is which(visually indistinguishable just by looking at the circuit board)... so you'd have to check continuity/voltage with a meter..


Well, hope perhaps some of this info is useful.... personally, I'd just live with it, or at most rig up an alarm..

Heh, I just wish I had anti pinch and auto-close in my SRT.. I almost retrofit a system but there's too much vehicle specific software work I'd have to do..
 

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Great post Haggar!!!

I am really glad to have you aboard.

Thanks for all your wonderful design work on this magnificant "Luxury Muscle Car".

Now . . . about cracking the ECM software re: performance mods for us gearheads... we gotta talk. :D
 

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Wow, yes Haggar, awesome post...

I love working with that stuff on the side and understanding how that stuff is functioning behind the scenes... My father has his masters degree in electrical engineering and growing up with that I just loved to see this stuff and soak it up.

Anyways, I really enjoyed reading that post and can tell you really know what you're talking about!

Thanks again for the read, I think people want the sunroof to do the neat things because we see them in people's jettas and wonder why we haven't gotten them yet.
 

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I've bounced around the town for several different companies.. I've worked for Walbro doing fuel systems, Continental Teves doing ABS/traction/ESC, Chrysler/DaimlerChrysler designing the onboard networks, Valeo designing anti-pinch windows and sunroofs.... presently, I'm at SiemensVDO, designing automatic temp/HVAC controls for some future chryslers...
 

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Haggar said:
I've bounced around the town for several different companies.. I've worked for Walbro doing fuel systems, Continental Teves doing ABS/traction/ESC, Chrysler/DaimlerChrysler designing the onboard networks, Valeo designing anti-pinch windows and sunroofs.... presently, I'm at SiemensVDO, designing automatic temp/HVAC controls for some future chryslers...
Wow with all those credentials, why not build your own car, maybe call it a Haggar!!! Hmmmmmmmmm!! Just kidding, but that was an impressive post. Thxs. :D
 

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Welcome to the site. It seems that this would be a lengthly task but good luck.

Informative insight Haggar. All I get to do is design roads, bridges, highways, water and wastewater treatment plants. :(

<---glad that I only had to take circuits and nothing else related to EE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Haggar said:
Hmm... well, I happen to be the electrical engineer who designed the sunroof control module for the LX cars, so perhaps I can be of some assistance..(well, I designed all of the electronics, and helped with the software..)

Hmm... well, I too happen to be an electrical engineer - power discipline, nothing under 15,000 volts and 600 amps!. But electronics is my hobby.

Thanks a 'jigawatt' for the overview of the design and operation of the sunroof. It will be invaluable as I dig into rigging up the functionality I desire. What I really have to question about Chrysler's design philosophy is, that with ALL of the other owner activate/de-activate features availabe on the 300C, WHY NOT let the choice of an automatic closing sunroof be up to the owner?

It's something I am bound and determine to do. It may take me awhile because I have to work for a living, but I'll get it. I designed and built my own sequential turnsignal circuitry for my 1997 Mustang Cobra. It cost me less than $30 in Radio Shack parts and my own labor (I work very cheaply for myself) as opposed to a pre-engineered plugin kit for around $280. The difference went into the gas tank to be enjoyed in top-down cruising!

I've already done a recon of the overhead console with regard to its removal for access to the wiring. The sunroof switch is there (apparently with key-switch power), the interior overhead maplights are there with their door-switched power, and the front edge of the sunroof is mere millimeters away.

I also have another power distribution situation to attack: key-switched power to the power outlet within the console between the front seats. That will be like taking candy from a baby as compared to the sunroof because key-switched power already exists at the front console power outlet.

So, thanks again for the overview. It confirmed my thoughts on the no-pinch design, and enlightened me as to the electronic control of the motor. Neat stuff. Given the parameters that Chrysler handed you, your design certainly does the job well.
 

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:)

It certainly could be done, and it seems like you have the knowledge to make something work.

The US automakers are always worried about cost and lawsuits, which, in this case, is why the anti-pinch circuitry is A) taking so long to arrive on US models, and B) why they don't usually feature the un-attended closure options..

We did a study of all US cars with anti-pinch windows... I believe there were 67 models, of which more than 2/3rds were foreign cars...

There's a big difference in design philosophy, especially with electronics.
 

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I think fuse 19 in the rear fuse box controls the glove box outlet to be either on all the time or key switched.
 

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Great post everyone!
Thanks for all the information! I have a question....

Could it be wired or programed so when the key is taken out it automatically closes the roof?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
BBC said:
Great post everyone!
Thanks for all the information! I have a question....

Could it be wired or programed so when the key is taken out it automatically closes the roof?
RON:

That is almost exactly what I am talking about, and then some. If you ever noticed, if you have the audio system on when you turn off the ignition and remove the key before opening the door to exit, the audio system continues to play. Then when you open the door the courtesy lights go on and the audio system shuts off. There is some kind of programmable something or other that will allow some devices (like audio, windows and sunroof) to operate for up to 45 minutes after turning off the ignition, with everything being terminated when the door opens. This is exactly the point (when the door is opened) at which the sunroof would automatically close if not already closed. The same circuit that turns on the courtesy lights could be used to initiate/power/end the closing of the sunroof. Actually, the initiating part seems to be the trickiest, as the power and end parts are already functioning in normal use. Only the initiating part would really be something new. It would simulate ones physically pressing the close button, but do it without ones thought or intervention, and when all normal electrically operate stuff has been automatically turned off. I have a rough plan, just have to gather more info on the circuitry of the courtesy light. Looks like a CD service manual is on the horizon for me to be able to develop the control circuit. The idea I have is quite simple, but I need the real details to see if things work the way I think they work before I build a prototype and pull the sunroof switch overhead console down for a look see.
 

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It sounds simple as a 1/2 second pulse closure on the close button of the sunroof anytime the courtesy lights come on (specifically due to driver door open and key out if it's possible to know all that). It would be preferred if the sunroof would ignore the additional presses when the it knows it's already closed. I would hate to be unecessarily energizing the sunroof motor. This would be a great software hack (firmware upgrade) if that were possible.
 

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Keep me posted! That is one of my biggest peves in the summer. I always pull the key then realize I did'nt close the dang window!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
BrilliantBlackHemi said:
It sounds simple as a 1/2 second pulse closure on the close button of the sunroof anytime the courtesy lights come on (specifically due to driver door open and key out if it's possible to know all that). It would be preferred if the sunroof would ignore the additional presses when the it knows it's already closed. I would hate to be unecessarily energizing the sunroof motor. This would be a great software hack (firmware upgrade) if that were possible.
You know, you may have just simplified my concept. Initially I was thinking a proximity switch would be needed to sense that the sunroof was actually open. But now I' m thinking hit the close button circuit with the pulse EVERY time the door is opened! What would it matter? If the sunroof is already closed it just doesn't move, like if you pressed the close button with your finger when the sunroof is already closed. And if it is open it closes itself with its own controls. And, now that I think about it a bit further, there's no real need to wait for the door to be opened. Just send the pulse when the ignition is switched to lock and the key is removed, which (at least in my case) is before the door is opened and the "power on delay" is still providing full function at the sunroof switch. This is getting better all of the time. Just have to find the circuit that changes state when the key is pulled and use it to trigger the sunroof close sequence. I ordered my CD service manual last night. "I love it when a plan comes together!"
 
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